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ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:

The arguement put forth on this thread justifying the recreational use of alcohol are the same ones put forth to us by two of our boys.

At the time this happened I figured when they matured they would see the issue differently. But this did not happen. The bodies got older but the conscience did not mature. So what did happen? They drink - now.

Now they are people who are so self-centered. They were back then and still are, the one more so then the other.

My point? Read again the above because I do not believe this to be unusual - "my rights, I want what I want and you ain't gonna tell me I can't!"


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Sandra Miller

 2011/8/23 22:01Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

It was suggested that we keep this conversation biblical, so I hope to add some thoughts to consider.

First, I wish to show that there are two types of potentially intoxicating drinks mentioned in the NT, 'wine' and 'strong drink'.

For he (John Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. (Luke 1:15)

John was a Nazarite from birth. He was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb. What need he of intoxicating drink? It would not be said of him as the prophets of Isaiah's time,

But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. (Isaiah 28:7)

John gave no place to the Devil. 'I can handle it' was not in John's thinking. He gave space to the enemy no, not for an hour. He did not gaze upon the wine when it was red in the glass, moving aright just waiting to bite like a serpent, And sting like a viper. (Proverbs 23:31, 32) John did not put the serpent or viper into his mouth, but rather heeded the advice of Solomon. View red wine as a viper and serpent ready to destroy you. No man never having taken the first drink ever became a alcoholic. Dost thou hast liberty to sleep among vipers? Yea, but do it at thine own peril. This is our example of the manner of life of a goodly prophet.

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: (Leviticus 10:9)

If so be that the man survive the bite of the serpent and the sting of the viper, will he survive God? He taught Israel the reality of dealing with a holy God. The priests were not to consume such drinks while near the presence of God. It is believed that this rule was implemented because Nadab and Abihu were drunk when they offered strange fire, but this is not certain. If it is true the story is even more profound as the drinking of wine and strong drink for a believer imperils their ability to rightly serve God. Again, Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations. If perchance a believer may implore the Lord depart his body, that is to say, his temple for the sake of drink we may well question which he intended to serve. Did God write these things for Aaron and his sons only or not all together for our sakes? Aaron and his sons were moving in the figures of the truth, but we have experienced the reality. This is the way of a goodly priest. (see also 1 Corinthians 11:21-30)

Was Jesus a glutton and drunkard?

God forbid. The Son of Man has come reating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ (Luke 7:33, 34) This is contrasted with their other comment about John, For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. What did they say?

1. Jesus was a drunkard and glutton
2. John was demon possessed

They were wrong on all accounts including the way in which they tried to suggest He was a 'friend of tax collectors and sinners!'. He was not a 'friend' in the sense that he was signing-off on their sin. He reached out to them not partaking of their error in any way, shape, or form. They blasphemed Jesus, John and the Holy Ghost all in one motion. How? John had not a devil, but was filled with the Spirit.

Moreover, in the NT there is no justification for drinking any drink that could be labeled 'strong-drink'. These are non-wines (shekar) meant for the sole purpose of causing intoxication. Arguably they may have been used for medicinal purposes, but certainly not to help a stomach as with young Timothy. BTW, to think Paul would suggest Timothy look upon the red wine to help his stomach, as if the wine in question is the same as the wine in Proverbs is nonsense.

...keep thyself pure. (1 Tim. 5:22b) Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities. (v. 23)

Why would Paul suggest Timothy partake of something that could lead to his destruction prefacing the comment with 'keep thyself pure'? He uses the words οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ (few wine or little wine). It is the same word used here, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few (ὀλίγος) there be that find it. In other words Paul was saying, "Keep thyself pure, take just a little wine for your stomach, etc." It was not a green light for so-called recreational drinking whatsoever. Little means little means little means little. Not to catch a buzz or anything else.

Why the desire?

Why would a believer 'want' to drink something that knowingly had alcohol in it when it was not necessary? When you can walk into a store and find more types of non-alcoholic drinks than has ever been running the gamut of every flavor, etc. imaginable. Why desire booze? It does not take a rocket engineer to figure it out.

Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

There comes a temptation to flirt with sin that at the last will utterly destroy. Why would anyone want to flirt with a viper or a serpent? It is folly to suggest that I can hold my liquor better than my brother or sister, therefore drinking intoxicating drink is not sin to me. I have personally seen men criticize drunks for drinking only to be seduced by a few drinks and they are alcoholic today. This is not academic for me. I have had a front row seat to the suffering men have caused their families because they were so good at holding their liquor. Booze in not my friend, it is mine enemy. I have been at the bedsides of men and even ministered to women as their bellies bloated full of fluid until they looked 12 months pregnant (9+3). I have seen where they had to be 'tapped' to release the gallons and gallons of water. At the last the scripture is true. It does sting like a viper. I have seen men vomit up ice chips in the throes of death trying to quench their thirst after years of quenching it with a 'cold one'. It doesn't get any better than this! so the commercial says. I beg to differ. I have a PHD in hard knox as a result of alcoholism as do many of us. We don't need convinced it is evil from the word go. We know it is.

Why would anyone want to flirt with sin and be full of the Holy Spirit? Eph. 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. This is the key for quenching the thirst for drink.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2011/8/24 4:06Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:


Robert wrote:
"Why would anyone want to flirt with sin and be full of the Holy Spirit? Eph. 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. This is the key for quenching the thirst for drink."

Well said. This principle has far-reaching applications.


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Sandra Miller

 2011/8/24 6:43Profile









 Re:

As I have said... Christians are free. If one Christian drinks a glass of wine, and one does not... neither are in sin, according to Paul.

The sin enters in with how they judge each other, or if one causes the other to stumble, or if one sins against his own conscience.

Having said that, other than for medical purposes if prescribed by a physician, why drink anyway? What is the purpose?

And I posed this question on this and at least one other thread... and it usually ends the conversation. I will post it again and lets see what happens...

Would you stand in the public square and proclaim the glorious gospel of Christ with a Bible in one hand... and a Bud Lite in the other?

Krispy

 2011/8/24 8:15
brothergary
Member



Joined: 2011/8/6
Posts: 103


 Re:

when the bible says
that decons should not be givern to much wine

what does that mean

surely it doesnt mean deacons should not be givern to grape juce
paull must be talking about wine that has some sort of punch ,even it it is a litle jab

i dont think the issue is geting drunk
we all know we are comanded not to get drunk
and drunkens will not inherit the kindom

surely we dont have anyone here that would say they have the liberty to get drunk

i sopose a bibical defintion on the word drunk ,would help to understand

well im off to bed ,,after by 2 unfermented pears

no wine

 2011/8/24 8:21Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi krispy,many years ago i met one of the greatest winesses i have ever known who was very wealthy and not founded in any religeous upbringing. when he got saved he got sho enuff saved and for a while would witness with a scotch in one hand and a bible in the other. he led many business guys to the Lord and after a while there was no drink and after another while he was a force in changing the lives of many men and women. he died in one of his own helicopters. the church was full of people whose lives were touched by jim o.including mine.jimp

 2011/8/24 8:39Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
what does that mean

surely it doesnt mean deacons should not be givern to grape juce
paull must be talking about wine that has some sort of punch ,even it it is a litle jab



This is in line with what Paul told Timothy when he said, '...keep thyself pure, (1 Tim. 5:22b) Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities. (v. 23)' Little means 'little' or 'few' as in the prohibition of 'much wine' in Titus and Timothy. Notice also that our word here is 'wine' (yayin) and not 'strong drink' (shakar heb/sikara gk) which is a term used only in Luke. There is no place whatsoever for the drinking of 'strong drink' in the NT. I'm prepared to stand corrected though. This would mean that any liberty to drink is for wine (yayin heb/oinos gk) alone in low quantities and NOT for drinks designed to cause intoxication. In other words to suggest that a Christian may 'take a little wine' is not the same thing at all as saying 'have a beer' or a 'mixed drink'. again, if we know drunkenness is prohibited why take a drink for the intent purpose of causing a prohibited state?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2011/8/24 9:44Profile
TimmyJoe
Member



Joined: 2007/6/19
Posts: 120
Panama City, FL

 Re:

I have to agree with bro. Robert and Krispy. We have so many drinks (Soda, juice, kool aid, etc..) that it really isn't necessary to drink anything alcoholic, whereas earlier believers didn't have such options. Though we cannot stand behind a pulpit and condemn drinking as a sin. We can warn of the many dangers involved!

I think a better question than "is it ok for a Christian to drink?" would be "CAN it be ok for a Christian to drink?". Which obviously depends on the circumstances. If we have a bad headache we may can just pop an aspirin, but what about the poor brother in the third world whose only option to take the edge off is an old bottle of fermented drink? Can we condemn him? I think not.

Do I believe Jesus drank fermented wine? Yes. Do I think its necessary for us, especially in America? Nope. But I do not believe we can condemn the brother who does, perhaps a loving conversation discussing the dangers with him would change his mind better than standing on a soap box telling him to "turn or burn".

 2011/8/24 10:29Profile









 Re:

Quote:
hi krispy,many years ago i met one of the greatest winesses i have ever known who was very wealthy and not founded in any religeous upbringing. when he got saved he got sho enuff saved and for a while would witness with a scotch in one hand and a bible in the other. he led many business guys to the Lord and after a while there was no drink and after another while he was a force in changing the lives of many men and women. he died in one of his own helicopters. the church was full of people whose lives were touched by jim o.including mine.jimp



So let me ask YOU... would you stand in the town square proclaiming the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ with a Bible in one hand or a Bud Lite in the other?

Krispy

 2011/8/24 11:05
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

I guess I will semi-hijack this thread for all those that think a little wine is really a big sin.
In the Bible Jacob was dishonest, Peter had a temper, David committed adultery, Noah got drunk, Jonah ran from God, Paul was a murderer, Gideon was insecure, Miriam was a gossiper, Martha was a worrier, Thomas was a doubter, Sarah was impatient, Elijah was moody, Moses stuttered, Zaccheus was short, Abraham was old, and Lazarus was dead. Now what's your excuse? Get off you backside and on your knees and thank God for who you are and what you have, cause brethern aint nobody perfect!


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Bill

 2011/8/24 12:00Profile





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