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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Did Jesus Turn Water into Fermented or unfermented Wine?

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savedtoserve
Member



Joined: 2011/4/7
Posts: 255


 Re:

Areadymind,

I understand what you're saying, but I would like to reword it as follows.

We need to have GRACE towards others whose view on a matter is not the same as ours. And yet at the same time, it is still our duty to stand for and proclaim the truth that God has given us (through his word). The Bible says "grace AND truth came by Jesus Christ."

"That will never find any resolution..."??? I beg to differ. I believe the answer to everything is within the pages of that Holy Book and if you study long enough, you'll find it. Of course, I'm not saying all Christian in a church agree on every little thing, but they should on the important things.

 2011/8/23 9:49Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

Read my sig. lines maybe this will help some folks. savedtoserve, yes I agree the answers are all there, but our understanding of them is not. Again read my sig. lines, hope this helps with this discussion.


_________________
Bill

 2011/8/23 10:15Profile
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re: straining the gnats out of the wine?

Sometimes scripture provides us with disclosure on a subject that is provided by those to whom we would be in opposition . For instance when we speak to Christ's declaration of divinity, they may argue (and sometimes vehemently) against what we present, as they see what is presented as a biased presentation on our part. However credence can be found from the most unusual sources. The religious leaders, made up of many factions in Christ day, where of one accord on this and did not miss the fact that Jesus Claimed to be God. Even though they did not believe His deity, they most certainly understood His claim to it. Their understanding of what He said does not prove His deity, but it does make clear His claim to it.

Just as we hear the massive crowd at Pentecost trying to understand the miracle of declaration being declared by those upon whom the H.S alighted. Drunk they were not, for they had not partaken of NEW WINE being still an early hour of the morning. So the crowd (which should be familiar with the difference of grape juice and wine does give us enlightenment as to the meaning of new wine when viewed in this context.

The question I would think we should be asking ourselves is how the abstention of things ties in with the example given in scripture of the new convert conscience being compromised.

Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, in everything give glory to God
1st Cor 10:31

YOU CANNOT DRINK THE CUP OF THE LORD AND DEMONS
1st Cor 10:21

In this debate of wine and conscience we must understand that these two verse are being tied together. So we must address whether or not it is right to do so.

Is there anything in this that speaks to liberty, if wine is made to fall under the category of the demon cup? So the question is: Is this what scripture is speaking to when it comes to the subject of wine and liberty? Given the above proclamation which is more an ultimatum, we should ask ourselves if this is what scripture is really speaking to? If wine is the cup spoken of that will cause one to look differently upon the God of the new converts salvation as well as the demons they were delivered from, then there is no longer a question of this subject of wine ever being a question of liberty. On the other hand, if this is not what scripture speaks to, then we must examine the dangers that come by lending support to false concepts of righteousness.

So should we examine the dangers (and they are serious dangers) of validating acts done by Christians for the sake of a righteousness not born in Christ? It is a plague that is epidemic where I live and it is so powerful that it would have virtually anyone who would associate themselves with Christ, abstaining from anything and any action that has been codified by local tradition ie the unspoken and unwritten laws that individuals adhere to. Evidenced by the fact that is is not the young in Christ offended but the Elders first and all age groups that would fall below them in descending order. It is not an offense that the indwelling originates but rather an offense that comes by the disenchantment of men that results in false conviction.

It is natural for men to do what is right in their own eyes and they will do many things that they will account to themselves as making them more acceptable to God. Even the children of the world hold up similar acts that they feel will qualify them as good and use it to account their worth in Gods eyes. These things they do in ignorance but we, knowing that these things come naturally to the fallen nature, should be aware not to be seduced by its powerful attraction to the flesh.





 2011/8/23 10:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:
"That will never find any resolution..."??? I beg to differ. I believe the answer to everything is within the pages of that Holy Book and if you study long enough, you'll find it. Of course, I'm not saying all Christian in a church agree on every little thing, but they should on the important things.



Oh good! I'm glad to hear this! Can you please settle the Calvinsim vs Arminianism debate for us once and for all??

Thanx! Awaiting your reply... :-)

Krispy

PS: Yes, making a point here!

 2011/8/23 11:23
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Hi savedtoserve:

I made this point in an earlier thread, here's what Paul told Timothy in 1 Timothy 3:

Quote:
Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

8 In the same way, deacons[b] are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.



There are THREE groups of people that Paul is talking about here:

Elders: Not given to drunkenness (which is different than being a 'drunkard', being a 'drunkard' is a habitual problem)

Deacons: Not much wine

Since everyone is not an elder and everyone is not a deacon there is a third group of people here: The rest of the body.

The rest of the body is encouraged by Ephesians 5 and all of the scriptures in Proverbs "don't be drunk with wine". The word is clear regarding what happens when we abuse alcohol (ie 'it leads to debauchery).

If your conscience is violated by YOU drinking wine then I respect that but we cannot look at the Word through religious tradition and believe that it says something that it doesn't say or we are making a god that is in our own image (a god that suits us best). There is no scripture in the whole Bible that calls for total abstinence, none.

Either way I don't judge you for what you do or do not do (please hear my heart in this).

 2011/8/23 12:41Profile
savedtoserve
Member



Joined: 2011/4/7
Posts: 255


 Re:

I do hear you, learjet. But you're totally disregarding the distinction of new wine and old wine, which is clearly distinguished in Scripture.

Here are some facts and then some scriptures for ya'll.

Quote:
Tests show that after drinking three bottles of beer, there is an average of 13 percent net memory loss. After taking only small quantities of alcohol, trained typists were tested and their errors increased 40 percent. Only one ounce of alcohol increases the time required to make a decision by nearly 10 percent; hinders muscular reaction by 17 percent; increases errors due to lack of attention by 35 percent.



And this is something that the King of Kings would do???

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
- 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

Did anyone read this link? http://www.amazingfacts.org/resources/download/PBLib/BK-CA.pdf

savedtoserve


 2011/8/23 13:10Profile
Creation7
Member



Joined: 2011/8/16
Posts: 159


 Re:

Quote:
Oh good! I'm glad to hear this! Can you please settle the Calvinsim vs Arminianism debate for us once and for all??



Do you really believe that you cannot figure out which, Calvanism or Arminianism, is correct through Scripture? By the way, there is a middle ground. :) I'm not trying to start a new topic here, I'm just wondering if that's what you were trying to say through your example. In other words, are you trying to say the Bible doesn't have the answer to all matters of faith, practice, and principle?

 2011/8/23 13:25Profile
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quote:
But you're totally disregarding the distinction of new wine and old wine, which is clearly distinguished in Scripture.



Actually, I'm not confused regarding old wine and new wine the word means the same thing in Hebrew as it does in Greek: fermented grape juice. It's right there in Strongs (and Vines) have a look for yourself. I don't have to rely on forensic anthropologists and their opinions regarding 'diluted wine' or 'grape juice' to justify the Lords ways, the Word alone is clear.

If it is grape juice like you say then why did Paul specify how much or how little a person in a position of authority should consume? Who care how much grape juice a person drinks? It doesn't make sense any other way.

They called Jesus a 'winebibber and a sinner', do you think that they called Him this for drinking grape juice?

By all means brother don't drink wine, it's obvious that you would be violating your conscience but don't judge others who do as being less spiritual than yourself.

 2011/8/23 13:44Profile









 Re:

Actually I think the Message "Bible" said they called Him a "grape juice bibber".

Krispy

 2011/8/23 13:57









 Re:

Quote:
Do you really believe that you cannot figure out which, Calvanism or Arminianism, is correct through Scripture? By the way, there is a middle ground. :) I'm not trying to start a new topic here, I'm just wondering if that's what you were trying to say through your example. In other words, are you trying to say the Bible doesn't have the answer to all matters of faith, practice, and principle?



Oh no, not at all. I am fully convinced that Calvinism is just a nickname for Biblical Christianity. My point is that my Arminian brethren are just as convinced in the other direction. And the debate rages on.

The Bible is exactly clear concerning drinking wine. It does not condemn it. It warns against drinking too much, and teaches that most should leave it alone. It also teaches that some may have liberty in that area where others do not. Perfectly clear.

Krispy

 2011/8/23 14:01





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