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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Did Jesus Turn Water into Fermented or unfermented Wine?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Sorry if i frustrated anyone with this question,I didn't mean for anyone to get all bent out of shape over it.



I would ask that we maintain a right spirit as this thread plays out. It seems to be ramping-up a bit and I think unnecessarily. Each one must be persuaded in their own minds. This subject is relevant in our times, there are strong opinions and views, but lets try to move in a more gentle inquiry.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2011/8/22 13:06Profile









 Re:

I should say... I agree. Sometimes people misconstrue the tone that I am trying to get across.

Martyr, I'm NOT mad or upset. You know I love ya.

Krispy

 2011/8/22 13:08









 Re:

That's funny. "clean and refreshing tap water".

No offense intended but most people's "tap water" is full of chlorine.

Chlorine, fluorine (fluoride) and bromine, all lodge in the thyroid gland and that is why there is an epidemic of thyroid problems in the west.

That was an interesting piece on Biblical wine, Chris.

If it only contained 2-3% of alcohol, what kind of wine did people get drunk on. For instance, Noah and Lot.

Seems to me they knew how to make pretty strong drink in Noah's day.

Julius

 2011/8/22 16:34
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hi Julius21...

Quote:

That's funny. "clean and refreshing tap water".

No offense intended but most people's "tap water" is full of chlorine.

Chlorine, fluorine (fluoride) and bromine, all lodge in the thyroid gland and that is why there is an epidemic of thyroid problems in the west.



I'm not sure what you mean by "epidemic" of thyroid problems. At least according to the bulk of peer-reviewed clinical studies, the chemical additives in water (which vary from area to area) are "safe" and meant to make the water "safer" than if nothing were done with it. If you have an account with PubMed, you can even view the extensive studies on the subject. However, even if there was a risk from some of these chemicals, it could be a "calculated risk." In other words, the risk of NOT adding such things would be greater to a much larger number of people.

When my little sister was five years old, she contracted a parasite from tap water that was not effectively treated. She had to be flown to a hospital to determine the cause of her weakened state. Once identified, she was given medication to fight the parasite...and then it took a little time to recover. The doctors said that this particular parasite is found in lakes or rivers...but is usually spread to humans by drinking untreated or improperly treated water. Sure enough, an investigation found that the treatment at the time of our local water supply did not meet federal health standards. After that experience, my parents took measures (by purchasing equipment) to make sure our water was safe.

Quote:

That was an interesting piece on Biblical wine, Chris.

If it only contained 2-3% of alcohol, what kind of wine did people get drunk on. For instance, Noah and Lot.

Seems to me they knew how to make pretty strong drink in Noah's day.



This is what I was saying:
Quote:

Most importantly, wine in "Biblical" times was typically mixed. It was a staple drink of a time where water and fresh fruit juice was as scarce as a river, stream or working well. It was not used simply as a means to get drunk. Modern wine has an alcohol content of approximately 9-11%. Typical mixed wine consumed daily during Biblical times had an alcohol content of about 2-3%.



I was highlighting the fact that wine like this was a staple drink during Biblical times. Water and fresh juice weren't readily available. Refrigeration wasn't available for juice, so it naturally fermented on its own sugars. It was boiled (with yeast) as a method to safely preserve it for longer periods of time. So, many people drank various types of fruit wines. These wines were typically MIXED...so the alcohol content (which was already lower than what we have now) was quite diminished. As a result, it would be difficult to get drunk on such diluted wine...except by drinking extremely large quantities of it.

However, non-mixed wines were also available. These had a higher alcohol content and could more easily lead to drunkenness. Those who sought to get drunk could do so by drinking non-mixed wine.

I hope this clarifies what I was saying.


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Christopher

 2011/8/22 17:35Profile
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quote:
Jesus turned water into wine. Period. Thats what the text says. The only reason we debate it is because we are looking at this from a 21st century perspective and a culture that was heavily influenced by the prohibition movement of an earlier century.

The Bible does not condemn the consumption of wine. It condemns drunkeness. It warns against "strong drink" (whiskey, vodka, etc).



Like a moth to a fire I had to read this post. :-)

Krispy, well said and I would agree with your summary 100%.

It's amazing to me how many people stumble over the fact that Jesus created an alcoholic beverage. I guess it just doesn't fit folks view of who Jesus was, it definitely goes against the religious grain but the text is clear.

Additionally, I don't agree with the 'cultural watered down' line of thinking either, it's ridiculous. Is is so hard to believe that Jesus drank wine without being drunk?
Could not the Creator of the universe do this?

Personally, I don't judge a brother that drinks wine, and I don't judge a brother who doesn't.

One thing is clear, I don't want to make a god in my own image as the people did while Moses was on the mountain.

The bible has much to say about the abuse of wine, let's not go there.

I don't agree with the 'in American culture you shouldn't drink wine' line of thinking either. Jesus went out of his way to destroy religious arguments. It seems he purposely healed people on the sabbath, defended the disciples who ate grain on the sabbath and so forth.

Who got offended when He did these things? The Pharisees. He did not change His actions to 'not offend' these Pharisees, in fact He did the opposite. He is so wonderful.

Regarding 'strong drink':

If I gave you a drink of wine (beer, whatever) your response would likely be, "that's refreshing".

If I gave you a shot of rum, your response would likely be "WOW that's strong!!"

Now, what is strong drink?

It's really that simple (at least that's the light that I got on it). The bible was written by fishermen for fishermen (and women).

 2011/8/22 19:00Profile
savedtoserve
Member



Joined: 2011/4/7
Posts: 255


 Re:

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." I take that for what it says, not for what it could mean..."Well, it means deceived into drunkenness." Fine, but you're reading into it by saying that. It's a lot simpler when you take God for what He said.

I believe it would be beneficial to study the history of liquor, etc. And to study what the majority of faithful Christians for the last two thousand years believed about it. It is only the last few "progressive" generations of Christians that have turned it around 180 degrees from what it obviously was. Their explanation can sound good, but in the end it just doesn't glorify God and that should tell you something right there.

 2011/8/23 6:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:
It is only the last few "progressive" generations of Christians that have turned it around 180 degrees from what it obviously was. Their explanation can sound good, but in the end it just doesn't glorify God and that should tell you something right there.



While you and I will probably come to the same conclusion about alcohol use... you dont know your history. Actually consumption of wine was not considered anything out of the ordinary in Europe. Drunkeness yes, but moderate consumption of wine and even beer were not considered to be anything out of the ordinary.

Many of the reformers and great theologians of the past drank wine, and Martin Luther (a German) drank beer.

So no, it's not the last couple generations who have turned this around. Most of the American Christian attitudes about alcohol are a direct result of the "Temperance Movement" of the mid-1800's and the Prohibition of the early 1900's.

Unfortunately many Christians are ignorant of history... especially church history.

Krispy

 2011/8/23 7:07
savedtoserve
Member



Joined: 2011/4/7
Posts: 255


 Re:

Fine, but I don't look to Martin Luther for the truth on this matter. "Great theologian"....whatever. It really doesn't make it any more glorious to me.

I say this with humility that far more Christians are ignorant of the Bible than of Church history. Ok, forget the history part (even though there are some valid points still there). Stick with the Book and answer what it says.

Just taking an honest look at the record in the Bible of fermented drink, it is appalling how Christians would try to endorce alcohol as righteous even in moderation!

You might be interested in http://www.amazingfacts.org/resources/download/PBLib/BK-CA.pdf

 2011/8/23 7:20Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Just taking an honest look at the record in the Bible of fermented drink, it is appalling how Christians would try to endorce alcohol as righteous even in moderation!



Actually I have not seen anyone do that.

As for your attitude about church history, God's redemption story did not end with Revelation 22. It's being played out even today. To dismiss church history is an ignorant thing to do. Without understand the cultural background of scripture and all that has happened to bring the church (the bride of Christ) to where we are today is a breeding ground for false ideas, false teachers and false doctrine.

People always want to dismiss church history when it doesnt fit their argument. I can proove something from church history and you say "well, I dont care about that, I only care about what the Bible says!" Well, thats fine... but church history is the cannonized Bible lived out. Not perfectly, to be sure, but it is the demonstration and manifestation of the sovereign God applying His sovereign plan for the world.

The Bible did not just drop out of the sky the day you were born. There is 2,000 years of history (the good, the bad and the ugly) that we NEED to study and understand so we know how God brought us to where we are today.

This is clearly one of those issues where the Bible does not lay it down as black and white. If it did then there would be no debate.

Romans 14:5 "...let every man be fully convinced in his own mind."

If you think it's ok to have a glass of wine then do so with a clear conscience, and do not look down your nose on someone convinced that they should not.

If you believe it would be a sin for YOU to drink a glass of wine, then do not judge a brother who does not share your conviction.

It's not more difficult than that.

Both sides can act immaturely. No one is more mature in the faith based upon where they land on this issue.

Krispy

 2011/8/23 8:13
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

Brothers and sisters, I have been on this forum for over a year or so now, and I can honestly say that a significant percentage of the conversations that "can" become an impasse with no seeming resolution would be completely eradicated if each person took a long, hard, and honest look with a prayerful heart at Romans chapter 14. Each man must discern whether he is a weak or a spiritual brother. And we must recognize that Romans 14 is applicable to a vast arena of life. There are hundreds of topics that will never find any resolution apart from what Krispy said...each man must be convinced in his own mind. What that essentially means is, if you do anything that sears your own conscience, you are not acting in faith. The ultimate call is to trust that God is the Lord of our brothers and sisters. We must trust His capacity to preserve His children. Not our own capacity to do so. For we have no capacity for preservation, but our human capacity is more prone to the introduction of religion and "taste not touch not." God never told Adam and Eve not to "touch" the tree. Just not to eat of it.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2011/8/23 9:25Profile





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