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 Do not stumble your brother or sister...Do not be condemned.

I think the key here is moderation, and to strive NOT to stumble your brother. Paul said he would not drink wine as long as the world stands, if it stumbled another Christian. He surely would not have stated this principle he was convicted to live by, over grape juice alone, would he?

We are NOT free to stumble our brother or sister; for we are not our own...we are bought with a price. On the other hand, we are not to be brought under condemnation for the thing which we allow, whatever freedom it is, as long as it is "In the Lord." This includes wine.

PS: Martin Luther eventually married a young former Nun, and had several children while living in his own, protected home. He was given a large supply of many kegs of beer, and would entertain and fellowship visitors, the rest of his life, sharing a tankard or two with them. [Probably singing too...."A mighty fortress is our God!"...to the tune of the famous beer hall melody....]

 2011/8/25 8:48
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
by savedtoserve....Can we discontinue the off-topic posts? That's what emailing is for.



Off topic? let me guess, is that as you see it? I personally don't see any posts that are completely off topic here. Also how would one of us email without email address? if we asked for an email address to email someone, would that be off topic?


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Bill

 2011/8/25 8:55Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

King James Bible Deuteronomy 14:26
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.


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Bill

 2011/8/25 9:04Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re: Do not stumble your brother or sister...Do not be condemned.

______________________________________________________________
PS: Martin Luther eventually married a young former Nun, and had several children while living in his own, protected home. He was given a large supply of many kegs of beer, and would entertain and fellowship visitors, the rest of his life, sharing a tankard or two with them. [Probably singing too...."A mighty fortress is our God!"...to the tune of the famous beer hall melody....]
_____________________________________________________________

And Martin Luther also instigated the persecution of those who disagreed with him theologically...I do not consider him a saint whom I want to use as a role model for ANYTHING.

EDIT: While many in Christdom revere him for his role in breaking free from the tyranny of the Catholic church, we have no promise he made it to heaven...his attitude towards the Anabaptists was such that the Anabaptists did not allow their people to attend the reformed churches.


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Sandra Miller

 2011/8/25 9:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:
And Martin Luther also instigated the persecution of those who disagreed with him theologically...I do not consider him a saint whom I want to use as a role model for ANYTHING.

EDIT: While many in Christdom revere him for his role in breaking free from the tyranny of the Catholic church, we have no promise he made it to heaven...his attitude towards the Anabaptists was such that the Anabaptists did not allow their people to attend the reformed churches.



Ginny… nothing personal, as you know, but your history has a slant because your faith has it’s roots in the Anabaptists. It is true that the reformers had an issue with the Anabaptist, it was for good reason. It was not all theological. The Anabaptists were radically violent, and several of their leaders at the time were murderous. It was the Anabaptists who forced the reformers hand. It was not like many think today that here were all these peace loving innocent Anabaptists being persecuted by those mean old reformers… that’s ignorance.

Of course the reformers would not let them into their churches. The Anabaptists were all about violent overthrow at the time, and the reformers were one of their targets!

That was the Anabaptists then. After everything came to a head the Anabaptist did evolve into something completely different. But the ones the reformers were dealing with were not innocent.

And this is just the facts of history, available for any who care to take the time to dig a little bit.

Krispy

PS: And no, Martin Luther was not a perfect man. But he gets blamed for a lot of things that he really did not have much to do with.

 2011/8/25 10:51









 Assassinate the messenger?

Ginnyrose: Martin Luther is considered by many, as the spearhead of the Reformation. He is known for championing salvation by Faith in the believer by Jesus' atonement alone...and knew that this faith would probably cost him his life.

He translated the Bible.[ New Testament ] still read today, and as also is his daily devotions, which emanate a true and spiritual faith-walk. His enemies tagged his followers as "Lutherans". He believed that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

Though you may not consider him a saint, many, many do, as do I. Yes, he was primarily a theologian, but through the study of the Word, Luther was captured by the Word...which happens quite often, even in current history.

He made mistakes, and displayed some obvious prejudices that many disagree with, and find offensive, but in the end....even on his death bed, saw himself as a recipient of the grace of God that he championed....Below...is a well done documented history of the man, if you are interested.........................................

"The demands of study for academic degrees and preparation for delivering lectures drove Martin Luther to study the Scriptures in depth. Luther immersed himself in the teachings of the Scripture and the early church. Slowly, terms like penance and righteousness took on new meaning."

"The controversy that broke loose with the publication of his 95 Theses placed even more pressure on the reformer to study the Bible. This study convinced him that the Church had lost sight of several central truths. To Luther, the most important of these was the doctrine that brought him peace with God."

"With joy, Luther now believed and taught that salvation is a gift of God's grace, received by faith and trust in God's promise to forgive sins for the sake of Christ's death on the cross. This, he believed was God's work from beginning to end. "

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/martin-luther.html


The thread is about wine and alcohol use, and the examples of mere men are not valid....but the Word alone. It has been established I think, that alcoholic wine was used by the saints in the Bible, and not condemned carte-blanch. I added Luther as a post script; just an example of a Christian leader and the freedom that he had....as many do today.

Saying this, there is such a thing as alcoholics...and in the end, alcohol use has destroyed many saints, and much faith....but it is not condemned in the Word. In moderation, it seems to be normal, and in the cases of stumbling another, or yourself, prohibited...that's all.

 2011/8/25 11:05
ironfloater
Member



Joined: 2011/8/25
Posts: 2


 Going beyond the Apostle Paul himself

Many put forth the argument that since the possibility exists of stumbling one weak in the faith - total abstinence should become the rule of practice among all believers.

This clearly goes beyond what Paul the apostle intended, for had he himself reached that same conclusion his instructions to Timothy would have indicated so.

If Paul had reached the same conclusion that some put forth that all believers should abstain for the sake of not wounding the conscience of those weak in faith - then he would have clearly instructed all believers to abstain. Such instructions are nowhere to be found; instead, his own instructions to Timothy regarding overseers and deacons indicate that he chose not to command all believers to abstain. If Paul had been of the mind set that no believers should ever drink, he would have had no need to instruct Timothy or Titus in the way he did.

Those who advocate that every believer should abstain from alcohol because of the weak conscience of another have turned the true act of loving deferrment into a law of abstenence. Paul himself did not even do this, for had he done so he would have simply commanded all the churches to abstain from all alcohol because of the potentil of causing another to stumble.

I realize that those who advocate this position think they are acting in the best interest of others, and especially in the name of the Lord. However, their conclusion becomes a law trumping the true liberty of the individual believer's conscience. In doing so, they raise the question of conscience for everyone rather than doing as Paul instructed. Paul said that a believer should not be the one to bring forth the matter of conscience, but in the event that another did, he should act discreetly and set aside his liberty for the sake of the other's conscience.

The fact that Paul called it liberty should not be taken lightly. When we seek to place upon others a law of abstinence, we are in effect denying the liberty that the apostle Paul himself acknowledged.

Denying the liberty of conscience to a believer is every bit the stumbling block that many express concern over a believers choice to drink. Placing before belivers man made ordinances that neither Jesus nor the apostles set forth is one of the great causes of stumbling in the church today. It may even be "a doctrine of demons which includes the prohibition of eating and drinking things that God meant to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Regardless of how sincere a concern might be, if the Lord Himself gives a liberty that men seek to curtail, have thy not added to His law? Is this not setting aside His commandments for commandments made by men? Was this not the modus operandi of those who crucified our Lord?

ironfloater

 2011/8/25 11:21Profile









 Re: Going beyond the Apostle Paul himself

ironfloater... where did you come from??

Thats some good stuff right there! I have nothing more to add.

Krispy

 2011/8/25 11:27
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re: Anabaptist History

STEVE! I am shocked at your ignorance of Anabaptists!

I suggest you go here and listen to this series by Walter Beachy and get informed:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35408&forum=40&4

(Walter Beachy is a church historian, specializing in Anabaptist History. He is honest and humble. I know him quite well. He has taught church history at the Bible Institute level; has traveled to Europe to check out some questions he had...)

To characterize Anabaptist theology, lifestyle with the Munsterites is gross ignorance. They existed for some time and fell into oblivion.

It is true that Martin Luther appeared to have served his time quite well, but from God's perspective, how do we know? The guy was instrumental in killing people! How would you respond if Bentley or Olsteen or Billy Graham or David Wilkerson would have advised their supporters to kill their distractors? Would you justify it on the basis of their doctrinal positions, or condemn it based on their doctrinal positions? or what good they may have done? God is not a respecter of persons. (Read James, a book Luther abhorred, I am told.)

In any case, Jesus never lifted the sword to kill his enemies and neither are we justified in doing so.


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Sandra Miller

 2011/8/25 11:52Profile
Areadymind
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Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

Amen and well said Ironfloater. It would also seem to me that one of Jesus teachings has completely been ignored in this thread and that is concerning the fact that it is not what goes into a man that makes him evil, it is what comes out of him. Rigid additions to the word of God concerning the abstinence as it defines "holiness" is a construct from the minds of men. God's holiness is not defined by his abstinence, as much as it is defined by his "otherness." It is a positive, unique attribute. Men attempt to define holiness by what they don't do. Jesus seemed to display the holiness of God by what he did. The two ideas are completely polar. All religions teach abstinence to one degree or another. Jesus, as the image of God, expressed what it meant to engage in the life of the Spirit, apart from the constructs of externalized fleshly reforms.

As Jesus set his face toward Jerusalem like flint, he never displayed even once, the tendency of man toward "taste not touch not." Rather, his holiness and bread was to DO the will of the Father. He engaged in the positive infiltration with the leaven of the kingdom of God into the kosmos. As a result he certainly never once sinned, but it was more because he set his face like flint towards something, than it was because he spent his life contemplating his navel trying to avoid temptations.

I know my pathetic words do a terrible job of conveying the idea, I am sure others could do better, but I hope that there is an inkling of the truth here.

This topic is important. There are many preachers who are inimical to the holiness of God because they get such a bang out of defining the holiness in their lives through abstinence, will-worship, and a feigned or false humility. I am sorry to say it, but these teachings are completely anti-Romans 14, and anti-Colossians. I find them to be completely repulsive, and they tend to invigorate a desire to rebel, they also keep the Mary Magdalen's from fellowship. I have become aware of that device, and just simply ignore men when they elevate their own standards of holiness above the clearly depicted commands of God through his timeless Son, and blessed Apostles.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2011/8/25 11:58Profile





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