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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Did Jesus Turn Water into Fermented or unfermented Wine?

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Creation7
Member



Joined: 2011/8/16
Posts: 159


 Re:

Okay, I see what you're saying. But what I mean is, why could you not do both at the same time if it's not wrong to drink in the first place?

 2011/8/24 14:59Profile









 Re:

In some cultures it's accepted as normal even among Christians. So in whatever culture it is a Christian might be able to drink a beer and stand up with a clear conscience and proclaim the gospel... and the hearers may not have this expectation that Christian do not drink.

Here, in America, because of certain movements of the past there is a stigma and an expectation that Christians dont drink. So if a Christian did that here, for the unbeliever the drink will become the focus... "hey, thought you religious nuts dont drink??"

The gospel gets blurred.

It isnt a sin to drink a beer or a glass of wine. But why do it when it obscures the gospel? It's about perceptions. In this case it does cause people to stumble, so we're commanded to not do it if it causes one to stumble.

Krispy

 2011/8/24 15:12
Wheelz1951
Member



Joined: 2006/6/21
Posts: 10
Arkansas

 Re:

"An accuser of the brethren?" Now that's funny! Hope ya don't break a leg stepping down off that high-horse! ;)

 2011/8/24 15:23Profile









 Christian standards are Heart standards that God sees.

When I think of the Spirit of Truth, I think of all truth, every circumstance, every thought, and every act the believer may encounter, filtered through His Holiness; Everything. He lives within. This is the Nature of Holiness, and becoming Holy.

How we act upon these convictions, dictated by Him, is evident in the Godly Heart Character that we develop, which , I believe in God's eyes, is parallel with the fruit that we bear unto Him.

Paul spoke about drinking wine, and even prescribed it to his protege' apostle in training, Timothy, to deal with his "oft infirmities." He also spoke about Stumbling the others who did not have the liberty that another did. "as long as the world stands"...he says..."He would refuse to drink it...IF it stumbled his brother.

There are times we should not drink wine, even if we are free to do so, because it may wound a weaker brothers conscience.

12. “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

13. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you."....even drinking wine..

 2011/8/24 15:25









 Re:

Quote:
"An accuser of the brethren?" Now that's funny! Hope ya don't break a leg stepping down off that high-horse! ;)



You accused us of not caring about the lost, did you not? We are "brethren" are we not?

You accused the brethren (a false accusation, I might add).

Therefore, using simple logic, you set yourself up as an accuser of the brethren.

Why dont you get to know us before you accuse us?

Krispy

 2011/8/24 15:42
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 531
America's Heartand

 Re:

Evidently Paul did not see it totally this way.

When addressing the Corinthian Church, which Paul specifically said had problems with public drunkenness in church services....but the actual issue was they were factious, immature, and not waling in love.

Paul admonished them to not be using the Eucharist/Lords Supper as an occasion to drunkenness. He said if they wished to drink in this way, and to that level, to do so at home. Just the same way he also warns against gluttony and to eat at home.

1 Cor 11:18-22 " In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!"

Clearly it was not the eating or drinking that was the problem... it was their lack of humility toward the other believers.

However, Paul never scolded them for using the wine in the Eucharist/Lords Supper at all. He was obviously fine with it. It was the drunkenness, gluttony and selfishness exhibited that he rebuked. We also know from the rest of the Corinthian letter that sexual sin was being permitted at Corinth.

This should also lay to rest the foolishness that they were using "grape juice". Paul himself states that the "grape juice" they were using in communion was sufficient to "get them drunk" It was clearly alcoholic. Paul did not tell them to quit using it. He simply put guidelines on its use.


If drinking the wine at all was an issue with Paul then he would certainly have told them to stop it... but he did not. He told them to drink at home ,eat at home, not be drunken, don't be gluttonous, and quit being factious. The fact that Paul does not stop the use of wine here in the most obvious New Testament example really says it all. However, he also clearly dictates that if any actions cause a brother to stumble then to refrain in their presence because of their weak conscience.

Isn't it clear by now?

Eating food is not wrong. However, overeating and gluttony are a sin.
Drinking wine is not wrong. However, overdrinking and drunkenness are a sin.
Sexual realations in marriage are not wrong. However, sexual relations outside the boundaries of marriage are wrong and a sin.

Eating food, drinking wine, and sex are all the same. When kept within God's boundaries they are pleasures He made to be enjoyed. However, when we cross those boundaries we enter into adultery, gluttony, and drunkeness.

The argument has been made on this thread to totally avoid wine as "why play with fire. You might become an alcoholic". To then to be consistent and non hypocrital in that thought a person would then have to abstain from food for they might become a glutton... or abstain from sex with their wife/husband as they might some day become an adulterer. That is non sense. Keep things within the boundaries God established for food, wine, and sexual relations and they will then be a blessing from God.. not something to walk in fear of. Something to be respectful of His outlines on and walk within His standards on... but not paralyzed by fear on.

 2011/8/24 15:46Profile
Wheelz1951
Member



Joined: 2006/6/21
Posts: 10
Arkansas

 Re:

I "accused" no one! After you get the cast off your leg, you might want to take a look at that beam in your eye. ;)

I had no idea that this was a private club. Beginning to remind me of several of the "churches" we've visited.

 2011/8/24 15:53Profile









 Culture and wine or beer........


"In some cultures it's accepted as normal even among Christians. So in whatever culture it is a Christian might be able to drink a beer and stand up with a clear conscience and proclaim the gospel... and the hearers may not have this expectation that Christian do not drink."..Krispy

I attended a quite large Free Pentecostal meeting in Wales.. [ Scots included] in 1999. It involved waiting on the Lord, and every member functioning as led by the Spirit.

We met in the morning, lunched locally, and also met in the evenings. There is no food served in Wales without a pint or two of some high quality beer. Leaders, clergy, ministers, brothers and sisters all, seemed like drinking a beer or two during lunch was on par with cheerios in the morning. Nobody gave it a second thought, and nobody was drunk...and the meetings seemed unaffected to me; quite lively and spiritual actually.

Not all did, but it surely did not stumble anyone. Krispy's right....and yes....I had a pint or two myself, and a good time in the Spirit also.




 2011/8/24 15:54









 Re:

Quote:
I had no idea that this was a private club. Beginning to remind me of several of the "churches" we've visited.



I asked you to get to know us before you sit in judgement of us... that does not sound like a "private club". Sounds like an invitation.

By the way, isnt telling me I have a beam in my eye kinda judging me? You're telling me not to judge you as you judge me?

C'mon brother... tis you that seems to be on the perverbial 'high horse'. Step on down and join the rabble. And I wont wish you a broken leg. Just love from a brother. I would never wish harm on you.

Krispy

 2011/8/24 15:59
Wheelz1951
Member



Joined: 2006/6/21
Posts: 10
Arkansas

 Re:

No thanks! The kind of "love" I sense here is the kind I can do without. Y'all have fun. I think I'll go grab a glass of wine.

 2011/8/24 16:11Profile





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