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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : MacArthur on Beer, Bohemianism, and True Christian Liberty

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 Re:

Quote:
There's nothing wrong with my ability to read and hear the tone of an article. Go back and read it yourself and then come back and be honest and tell me that he didn't write it to provoke a response that he could be 'shocked about'.



I read it again... he didn't write it to provoke a response that he could be 'shocked about'.

He wrote that because it's the truth and the truth needs to be spoken whether it's popular or not. Thats been MacArthur's M.O. for over 40 years. Nothing new there. And whenever he speaks the truth about something, folks like you accuse him of being arrogant and "holier than thou".

It's not MacArthur who provokes a negative response, it's the truth that provokes a negative response. Men rejected the light because they love the darkness.

You are just having trouble dealing with the fact that he is right in what he says.

Krispy

 2011/8/17 7:07









 Re:

By the way, before anyone thinks I am saying alcohol is a sin... I agree there is no declaration in scripture that drinking alcohol is a sin in and of itself.

I drink a glass of red wine each evening. I do so because it was recommended by my cardiologist as a part of a healthy lifestyle after my heart attack last summer. It is having it's intended effects on my cholesterol levels.

Outside of that tho I have to ask folks... even tho it is not forbidden... why do it? Why drink? What is the purpose?

And it's interesting to me that people who are ardent supporters and advocators of "Christian liberty" are generally (not always, there are always exceptions) not very serious about the Lord in the way of Bible study, prayer, evangelism, etc. They have the doctrine of "Christian liberty" down pat... but little else.

Many times, in my opinion, what passes for "Christian liberty" is nothing more than using scripture to "justify sin". That ought not to be, brethren.

Krispy

 2011/8/17 7:46
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

I use to be pretty anti alcohol all around, my only argument I said on is this, We are forbidden to be drunk in Scripture that is clear but where do you cross the line?

I have sense seen as Krispy pointed out that it can have medical benifit, though I myself don't drink because of my above reasoning also I enjoy being able to be self controlled.


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2011/8/17 7:52Profile









 Re:

mguldner... yes, we have to be careful not to judge other people on this. But I want to pick people's brains a little and ask "Why?"

Krispy

 2011/8/17 8:16
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

I have not problem with the why, infact it is something that I am curious of. From my personal experience with family for the most part many where trying to cope with a pain they at the time couldn't mentally handle, one being my brother in law whose father died in a terrible accident. Healing must come from Christ otherwise we will look to the world for healing and only drink poison.


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Matthew Guldner

 2011/8/17 8:22Profile









 Re:

This year a family member shot himself in the head to avoid going to jail for DUI... this would be the 4th or 5th incarceration. So I sympathize. To avoid going to jail he chose to send himself to hell. Thats the ultimate example of how alcohol clouds the mind!

I think what I am asking is what is the purpose of drinking? Some wine does taste good with a steak. Some people honestly like a cold beer.

But at the same time... an ice tea can be just as refreshing. While it may be permissable, it may not be beneficial. Thats what scripture says, but I think a lot Christians stop at the "permissable" part and ignore the "not beneficial" part. Thats wrong.

People stringently argue for Christians drinking alcohol... do you witness as vigorously? Do you proclaim the gospel as loudly to a lost and dying world? And would you do it with a beer in your hand? If not... why not?

Would you stand in the town square and proclaim the gospel of Christ to lost people with a Bud Lite in your hand?

Krispy

 2011/8/17 9:38









 Re:

Anyone...? Anyone...? Bueller... Bueller...

Krispy

 2011/8/17 14:54
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re:

Who would defend insobriety which can lead to alcoholism and a great number of other things just as it would be to defend obesity which can lead to heart disease, diabetes and a great number of other things. I believe we are all past the foolishness of promoting anything without full disclosure that warns of the ramifications of abuse. A gun can be used for defense or murder. Food can be used to satisfy hunger/fellowship or gluttony. Likewise we should be able to fill in the rest regarding wine in scripture with both the benefit as well as the abuse ( I believe some of these verses were already listed in the thread).

There is much tradition and custom that has influenced us. We can spend years and years exposing it and still not fully bring all of it to light. We should be about exposing it and removing its affects upon us. I guess the reason the issue of wine bothers me so much is not the liberty aspect of it, but the abstinence from it as an accounting of righteousness. It is the religious poster child issue in the deep south that robs valuable time that could be used for addressing deep spiritual needs.

Just as scripture showed the Jews under the written law that should have had them crying out for a Savior, they added to that which was already an impossible burden to obtain righteousness apart from God. Why? So that they could author their own salvation. How? By works that we know as dead.

That is what bothers me. So many deceived by dead works. So what part should I play in validating them? This in no way diminishes the facts that cannot be discarded concerning any abuse, but I do not see these as the same issue.

The scriptures speak to babes offended by the consumption of those things that are offered to a god other than the True God they have just pledged their lives to. They are born again and have their eyes open to know the true God but they are infants in Christ. Do we not have sayings about the truth that comes out of a mouths of babes? Here are all these other gods receiveing glory from men. We should never down play the innocence and zeal that comes to them naturally when they are offended. What a great innocent love they have for the Lord. Their zeal should be celebrated for they see how offensive the offering is and what that meat and wine represent having been offered to the gods which are Satans guise desiring to steal and rob God of any possible glory that he(Satan) wants for himself. So the babe sees the brother eat that steak and drink the wine and the babe then second guesses his own conscience. Violating the conscience which has yet to gather the necessary discernment, thus openning the door to further and future violations of conscience. I have heard a great many brothers and sisters on this site that have questioned themselves in their discernment because it runs so counter to many in the church. This is in no way related but it does allow us to empathize with the babe who at this stage has yet to discern the issue of gods and the sacrifices offered to them.

So if we can tie this back to idolatry and other gods then the harm to the babe is without debate and the one who is guilty of such and calls himself a brother should see the err of his actions? On the other hand, if we are allowing the perpetuation of unexamined tradition and cultural influence upon which much dead work is built then we best examine the cost of fanning such flames.

 2011/8/17 18:09Profile









 Re:

Thats a good word, Lyle. I think most of the people who responded tho would agree with you that the Bible does not prohibit the drinking of alcohol in moderation.

Again, I ask this question: Who among us would stand in the village square and proclaim the gospel with a Bud Lite in their hand?

If no... why not? Explain...

(of course, this question is for those who have so strongly defended their idea of Christian liberty)

Krispy

 2011/8/18 5:50
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

I will add to Kripsy's question What is the benefit of smoking? I realized some added Cigar smoking to the list of liberities we have.

I disagree with smoking more than I do drinking, We are the temples of the Holy Spirit and should take care of our bodies and treat them as such. To my knowledge smoking has no benefit health wise as say the glass of wine some are prescibed.

This would also apply to junk food as well though, is putting that many calories into our bodies necessary and or Godly if we are to take care of our bodies?


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2011/8/18 6:03Profile





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