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I know what foundational doctrines are, but thanks for the lecture. I see that you don't really want to have a conversation.
| 2011/7/20 12:53|
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His Jesus is God,
I think you have side stepped the question in my opinion.
In regards to your comment in brackets,of course not all folks that are deaf and dumb have those disabilities because of demons.The question only pertains to those that are deaf and dumb because of demons.
On the day that a deaf and dumb person who are deaf and dumb because of demons are saved and indwelt do they begin to hear and speak?
(To your last question - not all "deaf or dumb" folks have those disabilities due to demons.)
| 2011/7/20 12:58||Profile|
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Hi Brother Staff, according to the works of Jesus and His Apostles and seeing that I've always loved reading the stories of Missionaries, yes - we see numerous accounts of those who were saved and healed simutaneously, when their infirmity was demonic. Bless GOD!!
| 2011/7/20 13:09|
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Hi Jesus is God,
Do you have scriptures to show that in particular after Jesus had ascended.And are you saying all people with illnesses or infirmity that are caused by demons are healed when they are saved and indwelt immediately?
And can we take into account these missionary stories as that would only be experiential doctrine wouldnt it?
Yours and thanks Staff
| 2011/7/20 13:31||Profile|
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Hi Staff. "after Jesus had ascended" would be the book of Acts, Brother.
It is interesting to note that when Jesus or the Apostles "laid hands on" one who needed healing - that the laying on of hands is never used with those who have a demon, neither by Jesus nor His Apostles -- showing that healing and "casting out devils" are not one in the same.
The illnesses that are not caused by a "demon" are just to be prayed for - as we see in James 5:6 with no mention of demons.
Afflictions that are not from "demons" but allowed by GOD can be seen in 1Corth 11:30 on those who take communion in a way that doesn't acknowledge the Body.
GOD can send afflictions - as we see with Job. Job did not need the-demon-of-boils "cast out of him" - GOD just allowed Satan to inflict him.
Job is a Christians best picture of how GOD will utilize Satan with one of His own.
Many times we read that they "healed all who were sick and cast out demons" - implying that not all that we healed had demons. Some were just sick and GOD wanted them healed for the propagation of the Gospel .... as the missionaries did, that I spoke of. Are we to imply that these Missionaries are liars? I don't believe they are or were.
Two types of 'sicknesses'. Some by demons, others not ...
Act 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, 'and' them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: 'and' many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
Act 14:8-10 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: the same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
Act 28:7-10 In the same quarters were possessions of the chief man of the island, whose name was Publius; who received us, and lodged us three days courteously. And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him. So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed: who also honoured us with many honours; and when we departed, they laded us with such things as were necessary.
Paul is seen raising the dead in Acts 20.
You can start with Acts 3 for the first healed "after Jesus had ascended" and there were those who were either healed of their illnesses and those who had demons cast out of them when Jesus sent out His Disciples while Jesus was still on earth.
It's rather clear that not all diseases are from demons.
Yes, I believe that if a person has "a foul spirit", as the man did in Mark 9:25 had that was "deaf & dumb", that that foul spirit must leave when the HOLY Spirit enters a human.
I see no accounts of the Apostles "casting demons Out of" true Believers in the Bible.
| 2011/7/20 16:32|
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Hi Again your not answering the questions asked,
Everyone knows Jesus ascended in Acts.Also it is clear that not all deseases or illnesses are not demonic as I said earlier myself
Even at the end you didnt answer the question clearly as the Mark 9.25 doesnt deal with salvation.
What I would like your opinion on is when a person with a demon is saved that demon has to leave all of the time?yes or no.
Also and more importantly you side stepped the issue of missionary stories of people being saved and demons coming out of the same time.Isnt that experiencal doctrine?
The account of demons being cast out are mainly to do with evangelism accounts that may be the reason it is not mentioned.If their were no accounts of the church expanding their would be no accounts of demons being cast out full stop.Yours Staff
| 2011/7/20 17:12||Profile|
This world is not my home anymore.
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Staff to JiG:
What I would like your opinion on is when a person with a demon is saved that demon has to leave all of the time? yes or no.
I'm not trying to butt in here AND I am not trying to put words into JiG's mouth but I've been down this road with her and others... If I am correct, I believe that they do not believe a saved person can have a demon, anyone who does have a demon is obviously unsaved. (Forgive me if I did not get it correct, JiG; I mean no harm).
That is my take on it, so brother they just might feel (I'm presuming again) that you are not asking them the right question!
God bless us all as we try to walk together and find something to agree on!!!
| 2011/7/20 17:30||Profile|
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I think that what Jig believes this as well but what I am asking is a little difficult to answer for some one with that belief.What happens to the demon and its effects at the moment of Salvation and Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
And at that moment of salvation and indwelling are their demon manifestations for those that have a demon?
The answer to the first question seems to be just experiental doctrine to me.ie missionaries have seen it happen.
It is important because if they are wrong in their belief they are denying christians a valuable and life channging resource.
| 2011/7/20 17:44||Profile|
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There are more people today than Jesus' time, and more demon possessed people than Jesus' time, so why is this so hard to figure out.
We should be seeing miraculous manifestations all the time.
Unless, of course, something else is afoot.
| 2011/7/20 19:53||Profile|
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Thanks Sis Lisa. I Do appreciate you answering for me and I know you mean no harm - it helped that I didn't have to repeat all of that again. Bless you!
Staff - I don't have tv at home and Dad's a huge Yankee fan, so I have to sit there and watch the games now that I've moved here, if I want to be with him.
Never fails that I get some 'spiritual' lesson out of watching these games with him. I knew very little about baseball until this season - watching it with him.
You know those people keep the most accurate statistics on each player. Even on the tiny things that they do. Keeping count of how many times they've done this or that in their career, right down to things that don't even matter that much to the game itself.
Then I thought -- What type of statistics have we kept on Jesus' and the Apostle's ministries?
If they didn't do it - why do we believe it?
Easy to answer I suppose, but if it's not in the record of Christ Himself while on earth or in the record of the Apostles and the first Church, I just won't go beyond their statistics.
I really believe that the N.T. is our 'Owner's' Manual on all that we'll ever need to know - if we look into it hard enough.
Yes staff, I do believe that when a person is truly saved, that demons cannot cohabit with The Holy Spirit or vice versa and that there are many more diseases that are caused by many factors other than demons. That is what I see in His Word, statistically speaking.
I believe if you preach that true Christians can have demons indwelling them, that it's a very bad witness to other 'religions' out there and even to the non-religious but mainly I must stand on the statistics of His Word - it's just not Scriptural.
GOD allowed Satan to "touch" Job's flesh, but not enter him.
I think we need to be more of statisticians with His Word than with other men's words or experiences.
I guess that wraps it up.
Thanks for your patience.
| 2011/7/20 23:08|