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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : GOD IS NOT REALLY THREE PERSONS

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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Phillip is right here. To add to his point:

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:32)

The Son of man here is clearly Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) is clearly a different person. In fact, to blaspheme Christ is to be forgiven, but to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit is a higher order of sin. We will not discuss here the details of this, but suffice it to say that the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are not and never have been the same person.

The context makes clear that the Holy Spirit dwelled inside of Christ, just as He dwells inside those that have the Spirit. I am not the same person as the Holy Spirit and neither was Christ. He was the Temple of God whilst on the earth; our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit if the Spirit dwells in us.

To send the Comforter must be another person of the God head, He will not speak of Himself but what Jesus says, He the Comforter, Holy Ghost will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of Judgement, because Jesus goes to His Father and we see Him no more. He is He whom the Father has sent in the Sons name, to shew us things to come.

Jesus Christ serves even now as our Great High Priest at the right hand of God in the Temple in Heaven. He is our advocate with the Father. The Holy Spirit is sent into the earth and dwells in those that have received Him since they believed.

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (John 14:23)

This is made possible through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (John 14)

Jesus Christ is in the Father through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. We are in Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit. This does not make the Holy Spirit and the Father the same person or the Holy Spirit and Christ the same person. As we already observed, the Holy Spirit was being called an 'unclean spirit' by the religious crowd; Jesus said they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit. He said the crime was not against Him, but against the Spirit that was in Him. This is as plain as anything.

Robert Wurtz II

 2011/7/15 22:09Profile


You know, God created man in His image.

One man, not three or a half a dozen just one man.

And when some time had passed, from the image that God created, God pulled out another image from the man and created Woman.

From the ONE image of God, in the bosom of that image, was another image...woman.

When we get to the New Testament, it's the same.

Jesus the image of God comes out from the bosom of the Father and is born into this world.

Father(man) Jesus(weaker vessel) equals One Spirit.

From the scriptures this is how the Lord has shown me Himself.

Everyone is entitled to believe what they want to believe, but please keep this in mind, God created one man in His image, and from that image He created a woman and they two shall become one flesh or in the New Testament, one Spirit.

Some years ago while after coming in from an exhausting day I just flopped on the bed and began thinking about the things of God, Jesus appeared in my thought process and I saw Him standing there and saying, "It is time for you to meet the Father". With arms stretched out, He pointed to a throne and on that throne I saw darkness surrounding it. I was at first perplexed wondering if this was one of Satan's tricks. But as I gazed beyond the thick dark clouds I saw as if I was seeing the similitude of a man. Bare with me the words don't come easy. In comparison to Jesus, Jesus stood with all the glory, He shone, but the Father stood in this thick haze not easy to get to and easily misunderstood. I wondered with amazement and a deep appreciations began to well up within me. This was the beginning where I started calling God Father. The understanding came slowly and I began to see snippets here and there how that the Father is not seen readily, but is seen through a need, through the hungry, through the hurting. He is often overlooked. Through Christ He was shown to the world, but His own received Him not, they didn't recognize Him in Christ His express image of His Person. Sadly, neither do we.

I saw no "Holy Spirit", nothing to suggest that there was another person of the Godhead. It's just as the Lord had said, "I and the Father are one", which means One Spirit.

 2011/7/15 22:37


I saw no "Holy Spirit", nothing to suggest that there was another person of the Godhead. It's just as the Lord had said, "I and the Father are one", which means One Spirit.

Visions trump Scripture. Rad.

 2011/7/16 1:07


071611CST9:00 a.m.

Any true light made known through God's Word will most likely stand in direct opposition to what we think the truth really is.

If you have been following along:
--humbly praying that God reveal to us things lost, neglected, perverted, and/or forgotten
--with our Bibles
--checking accuracy in interpretation of the archaic languages
--checking the historical accuracy of facts stated
--reading the former threads first mentioned
(in the initial post of this thread)
Currently, we should (more or less) all be on the same page.
We should all in one accord becoming clearer about the truth of godhead as
revealed in God's Word.

Know this. My own intellect fought these things to the nth degree. It was through seeing from scripture again and again how things in it did not line up with what had been taught that questioning grew into searching then finding.

Thanks be to God who will not ever quit hounding me. It is so wonderful to know that His concern for us is not just letting us be happy in going the way we might think is right, and whether by scourging or a gentle still soft word spoken, He trains us in the way we should go.

About 9 months ago, when God took me back behind the woodshed. . .
[just before Grant--and a few others--rebuked me on forum for the rise of pride (more than) evident in posts! --Thank you so much brothers and sisters! You just don't realize how much the prayers of you Grant, Rick, Jim, and others who did not directly confront me have helped in God continually deepening development into the spirit of humility. i am increasingly learning to agape all here until we one day see one anothers face to face: knowing as we are known!]
. . .a few things were made very clear, summarized from personal perspective in the following:

There is always someone before and someone behind us on the straight and narrow. It is only because of my recieved grace and your recieved grace, King Jesus, that any of us recieves any wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of the truth whatsoever. Our Heavenly Father has ordained Him to be our all in all things. You and me, we are the body and though we may at times not understand, we all need each other to function in wholeness. When each of us stands for everyone else without partiality (and not against each another), we will finally recognize unity of the faith.
[Believe this, how God rebuked me was far more blunt and to the point, yet the principles are given above towards the admonishment and encouragement of all who read.]

Through years of repetition in teaching traditions that do not come from scripture, all of us, in varying degrees have strayed further from the literal revelation of the scriptures. It may have begun as something added to or taken away from what was initially written. It may have come through the influx of the church apostate mingling paganism, worldly philosophies, and ideas of men into what the scriptures already reveal. It might have been something taught to be believed and observed by generation after generation of those who have been duped into these things before you were ever a twinkle in your parents eyes. No matter what the reason(s), we have all been decieved in one way, and another, and another. . .ad infinitim.

A little leaven does what?

There has to be a coming back to the way things were initially established: the faith(fulness) once and for all time delivered by Jesus Christ.

So many of these constructs of ignorant human ingenuity we call doctrine are not really doctrine at all. If one is to call these things doctrines, call them what the scripture reveals them to be: doctrines of demons, doctrines of devils. These dogmatic fabrications do not have God as the source. These human analogies based on pick and choose verses taken out of context with human reasoning supporting false notions opposed to what is literally written.

This is one of the quickest routes to confound ourselves. First, we becoming: blind to the literal truth. We also are deaf to messages and messengers sent by God to prepare a way for the return of the Lord.

If it were not enough that we delude ourselves into more and more self deception, we can no longer hear what God is individually telling us by His own spirit.

The word of God reveals how God deals with those who serve and worship things he has not revealed of and by Himself. First, He quits with having anything to do with these who turn their back on Him choosing to bow down to these things which are actually
earth(l)y<--constructed in minds alienated from God,
sensual<--appealing to common sense, tickling itching ears
demonic<--if God did not say it first, there is only one other possible source.

Many wrong teachings and old traditions must be seen for what they really are and destroyed
through proclaiming God's Truth in these matters. Again,the same shall be repeated in a different way:
if ever there will be purity of this faith(fulness) onto God, we must be faithful ONLY to Him as he has instructed us in His Word.

There is no more time to be fudging around with human traditions. Never was it good and never was it fitting or even proper.

Now is the time to correct longstanding errors amongst His body.
If they will not hear though you show them from scripture repeatedly,
leave them alone unless you want to fall in the pit with them.

When God Himself through his spirit reveals to you individually, whether by your learned knowledge in the Truth, or a disruption against the shalom shalom of God within (from the spirit of Truth), take heed and do something about it right then and there. God does not reveal anything so we can indolently rest on our laurels. If you are too much of a coward to expose error, at least run far far away from it--come out from among it all, and God will recieve you like no man could ever attempt to do.

It was not until beginning to walk in the issues finally being spelled out on these threads that various manifestions of God's presence in spirit become more and more prominent daily.

To say and teach that God is something that He is not, is just like witchcraft.

To continue in any falsehood [and those which stem out from it] after God has shown us the truth by whatever means, is exactly like using divination to determine the revelation(s) God has cut us off from.

When we hold the truth unrighteously and lie against what is revealed, the results are plainly spelled out in Romans 1.18 - 2.11.

Like unto witchcraft, we see a prime example in the life teaching ministry of Jesus on earth:
(see Luke
"You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, "This people draws nearly unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me; but in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

And he called the multitude, and said unto them, "Hear, and understand: It's not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."

Then his disciples came and said to him, "Don't you know that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard your teaching?"

But answering he said, "Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
~Matthew 15.7-14

In divining for answers when God is no longer heard
(because one has cut themselves off from his truth)
by stubbornly insisting on things not found in the Bible
and resisting God's grace in Truth
is very dangerous ground to be on.
These may recieve the accolaides of men;
but that might be all they ever get:
a few decades of their best life now.
(consider Luke 16.13-26 )
. . .and when you look up the passage directly above,
if does not make you shudder,
consider the results of this stubbornness onto divination.

In this life, you will become more and more decieved no longer able to discern right from wrong, good from bad. . .reprobate. Yet do you realize the source of these delusions?

". . .With all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they did not recieve the love of the truth that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
~II Thessalonians 210-12

If you want a swift sure road to making yourself an enemy with God and become damned, just ignore the truth revealed from God's Word,
then, with all the ingenuity you can muster
either devise your own fables
or believe and live according to some myth.

The closer we come to understanding through living through Jesus and 'knowing' God in every aspect, the more we avail His purpose,His presence,and His power.

4:47 p.m.

'Phillip' and Robert,
The reason the whole issue of what spirit is, and why so much of these threads center around this issue is to push the envelope.
Though there is no response prepared to the comments made by ya'll, it was thouroughly overviewed already.

If you cannot accept the fact that Jesus came as a prophet and all words spoken by Him are indeed prophecy, i'll go with dealing simply specifically with what you are getting at. From here, it has already been hinted at sevearl times, and it was nearly brought up through the back and forth texts beween myself and Jesus is God earlier on this thread.
(recall in the previous post from here, the comment about issues not yet brought up for debate?)
When a text is completed, it will be forewarded for both of your perusals and rebuff.

There is desire that all things surrounding this issue be covered completely so that with no stone unturned, anyone who believes and promotes trinitarianism will be recognized, whether knowingly or unknowingly, to be advocating idolatry (designed by the idolatrous state/church apostate Roman Catholic wesoteric free-thinking '?theologians?'.
There is more to the vision than what you have said.
PM me.

thanks once again to referring me to Jake P.
Now it somewhat seems like i still have my rabbi showing and teaching me.
It's a pleasant reminded of the past, and a call to press on and push in that much more.

Your comment about vision trumping scripture may not be right. Last time checked, in Acts, Stephen saw Jesus STANDING AND NOT SEATED at the right hand of the Father. . .so which one is it???

Love & Hope & Faithfulness to you all on this

 2011/7/16 18:11


Your comment about vision trumping scripture may not be right. Last time checked, in Acts, Stephen saw Jesus STANDING AND NOT SEATED at the right hand of the Father. . .so which one is it???

I only meant simply that basing our understanding of doctrine on some sort of "vision" that we may or may not have actually had, and saying that this "proves" anything is not only dangerous but can't be taken seriously. Thus when someone cites their own "vision" and tries to say it validates anything that's outside of what's written (as I believe the Holy Spirit's distinct "being", if you will, is) I just find their credibility takes a sharp turn downward. And I mean REALLY downward.

Stephen saw what he saw. Scripture records that, and I believe it. But I've never taken that to mean anything other than what it said, simply that he saw Jesus. It never implies that Stephen was also saying, "Yup, there's only two of them, are you getting this Luke? I can't see any Holy Spirit."

And my issue was not whether or not Jesus was standing or sitting.

Forgive me for not adding further dialogue though.

 2011/7/16 19:55


Visions trump Scripture. Rad.

When Jesus gave the command to His disciples, Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

NOT one of them obeyed that command!!

If we say something else to excuse this tardy behaviour that the disciples had, than surely we should consider those that might hear from God today that if it doesn't EXACTLY say word for word it doesn't mean it's not right. If the wording of the bible is all we need then why bother having discernment? Even Paul would want us to discern his own writings.

Believe it or not folks, there is more growth awaiting us in the Spirit than there is in the letter.

 2011/7/16 21:11

Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA


From the scriptures this is how the Lord has shown me Himself.

I see something different from Scripture. As an example...

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Ephesians 1:3-5)

From this I see the Father delighted in the Son from before time and His intention in creating mankind was so that He could have a huge family of sons and daughters who were all conformed to the image of His Son. Additionally I see the Son also desires a Body through which to express Himself to the whole universe, and the Holy Spirit desires a Temple of living stones in which He can dwell for all eternity. So I see that we were created for the delight of the Triune God.

From the Scriptures I see in the Godhead that no member lives for or unto Himself, but Each lives for and unto the Other. The Father intends that in all things the Son might have the pre-eminance. The Son in turn lives to reveal the Father and thus brings glory and pleasure to Him. Likewise the Spirit speaks not of Himself but dedicates His activity to reveal the Son and to realize the purpose and goal of the Father and Son.

What is this inner attitude and spirit of selfless giving, which always serves and shares with One Another? It is a divine principle of action, which has always been expressive of the Godhead, that is revealed to us in the Cross. I see in the Scriptures that God desires for us to embrace this cross-principle that has ever governed His own heart. This is the God I see in the Scriptures, and it is marvelous in my sight!

In Christ,


Ron Halverson

 2011/7/16 21:37Profile

Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 26
North Carolina


How can we say these men of God did not obey the Word given them. They did exactly what they were told by revelation they believed. They died out to self and followed Christ as he commanded. They knew what Calvary was all about, and spent 10 days in tarrying for the power that Jesus had promised, dieing out to Christ that he could fill them with the Holy Ghost opening their understanding of the Word that they could preach the gospel in power and demonstration not mans vain reasoning. One verse that might be of help, "For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily", Colossians 2:9. Titles are titles. I am a father, son, and have a spirit. But my name is singular just like my relationship with Jesus Christ. I don't worship God seperatley as father and as son and spirit. Please search the scriptures and you will find there is only One throne in heaven not three, or two. One.

 2011/7/16 22:05Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


There is desire that all things surrounding this issue be covered completely so that with no stone unturned, anyone who believes and promotes trinitarianism will be recognized, whether knowingly or unknowingly, to be advocating idolatry (designed by the idolatrous state/church apostate Roman Catholic wesoteric free-thinking '?theologians?'.

This is nonsense. The attacks set forth here on SI against the Trinity have raged on unthwarted until somehow some of you (to whomsoever espouse such views) are under the delusion that the issue of the Trinity is somehow up for grabs. It is not. The historic Christian faith has always affirmed God to exist as one substance in three persons. It is an essential tenant of the faith and always has been. This is not Catholicism it is Christianity.

Is it just me or did the header on this thread become ALL CAPS a few days back? Are you trying to put forward these heretical views on the platform of these SI forums under the pretense of discussion?

Robert Wurtz II

 2011/7/16 22:32Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708


The Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself, i.e., on His own; He testifies to Jesus:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:..." (John 15:26).

If Jesus is the Holy Spirit, this comes out something like, 'He shall not speak of Himself, but He shall speak of Himself,' or 'I shall not speak of Myself, but I shall speak of Myself.'

Jesus Anointed with Jesus

"The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him." (Acts 10:36-38).

If Jesus is the Holy Spirit, this comes out, 'Jesus anointed Jesus of Nazareth with Jesus.'

Jesus Filled with Jesus

"Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, being tempted for forty days by the devil." (Luke 4:1-2).
If Jesus is the Holy Spirit, this comes out, 'Jesus, being filled with Jesus.'

Jesus Saw Jesus

"When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him." (Matthew 3:16).
If Jesus is the Holy Spirit, this comes out, 'Jesus saw Jesus.'

Try this one on for stupidnessl John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

"for Jesus will not speak of himself, but whatsoever Jesus shall hear, etc. "Jesus shall glorify Jesus" for Jesus shall receive Jesus"

I don't believe stupid is in the Word of God and by the Word of truth, if Jesus is the Holy Spirit, then stupid is in the Word, or if you please, eccentric, by the least.

If you would like to read the whole article:

In Christ: Phillip


 2011/7/16 22:54Profile

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