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 Re:

Came back on because I found the prayer by Isaac Watts. Composer of 600 hymns, such as, "When I Survey The Wondrous Cross".

His prayer -

A Solemn Address to the Deity by Isaac Watts

1 Righteous art thou, O Lord, when I plead with thee concerning thy judgments. Permit me, O my God and Father, to plead with thee concerning the revelations of thy nature and thy grace, which are made in thy Gospel : And let me do it with all that humble reverence, and that holy awe of thy majesty, which becomes a creature in the presence of God.
2 Hast thou not, O Lord God almighty, hast thou not transacted thy Divine and important affairs among men by thy Son Jesus Christ, and by thy Holy Spirit? and hast thou not ordained that men should transact their highest and most momentous concerns with thee, by the Son and by thy Spirit? Hast thou not, by the mouth of thy Son Jesus, required all that profess his religion to be washed with water in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost? Is it not my duty then, to inquire, who or what are these sacred names, and what they signify? Must I not know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ thy Son, whom thou hast sent, that I may fulfill all my respective duties toward thyself and thy Son, in hope of eternal life? Hath not thy Son himself appealed to thee in his last prayer, that eternal life depends upon this knowledge? And since thou hast made so much use of thy Holy Spirit in our religion, must I not have some knowledge of this thy Spirit also, that I may pay thee all these honors thou requirest from this Divine revelation?
3 Hast thou not ascribed Divine names, and titles, and characters to thy Son and thy Holy Spirit, in thy work, as well as assumed them to thyself? And hast thou not appointed to them such glorious offices as cannot be executed without something of Divinity or true Godhead in them? And yet art not thou, and thou alone, the true God? How shall a poor weak creature be able to adjust and reconcile these clashing ideas, or to understand this mystery? Or must I believe and act blindfold, without understanding?
4 Holy Father, thou knowest how firmly I believe, with all my soul, whatsoever thou hast plainly written and revealed in thy word. I believe thee to be the only true God, the supreme of beings, self sufficient for thine own existence, and for all thy infinite affairs and transactions among thy creatures. I believe thy Son Jesus Christ to be all-sufficient for the glorious work of mediation between God and man, to which thou hast appointed him. I believe he is a man, in whom dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. I believe he is one with God ; he is God manifest in the flesh ; and that the man Jesus is so closely and inseparably united with the true and eternal Godhead, as to become one Person, even as a human soul and body make one man. I believe that this illustrious Person is hereby possessed of Divine dignity sufficient to make full atonement for the sins of men by his sufferings and death, even though sin be accounted an infinite evil; and that he hath all-sufficient power to raise himself from the dead, to ascend to heaven, and fulfill the blessed works for which thou has exalted him, and to govern and judge the world in thine own appointed time.
5 I believe also thy blessed Spirit hath almighty power and influence to do all thy will, to instruct men effectually in Divine truths, to change the hearts of fallen mankind from sin to holiness, to carry on thy work of illumination, sanctification, and consolation on the hearts of all thy children, and to bring them safe to the heavenly world. I yield myself up joyfully and thankfully to this method of thy salvation, as it is revealed in thy Gospel. But I acknowledge my darkness still. I want to have this wonderful doctrine of the all-sufficiency of thy Son and thy Spirit, for these Divine works, made a little plainer. May not thy humble creature be permitted to know what share they can have in thy Deity? Is it a vain, sinful curiosity to desire to have this article in such a light, as may not diminish the eternal glory of the unity of the true God, nor of the supremacy of Thee, the Father of all?
6 Hadst thou informed me, gracious Father, in any place of thy word, that this Divine doctrine is not to be understood by men, and yet they were required to believe it, I would have subdued all my curiosity to faith, and submitted my wandering and doubtful imaginations, as far as it was possible, to the holy and wise determinations of thy word. But I cannot find thou hast anywhere forbid me to understand it, or to make these inquiries. My conscience is the best natural light thou hast put within me, and since thou hast given me the Scriptures, my own conscience bids me search the Scriptures, to find out truth and eternal life. It bids me try all things, and hold fast that which is good. And thy own word, by the same expressions, encourages this holy practice. I have, therefore, been long searching into this Divine doctrine, that I may pay thee due honor with understanding. Surely I ought to know the God whom I worship, whether he be one pure and simple being, or whether thou art a three-fold Deity, consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
7 Dear and blessed God! hadst thou been pleased, in any one plain Scripture, to have informed me which of the different opinions about the Holy Trinity, among the contending parties of Christians, had been t;rue, thou knowest with how much zeal, satisfaction, and joy my unbiased heart would have opened itself to receive and embrace the Divine discovery. Hadst thou told me plainly, in any single text, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three real distinct Persons in thy Divine nature, I had never suffered myself to be bewildered in so many doubts, nor embarrassed with so many strong fears of assenting to the mere inventions of men, instead of Divine doctrine; but I should have humbly and immediately accepted thy words, so far as it was possible for me to understand them, as the only rule of my faith. Or hadst thou been pleased to express and include this proposition in the several scattered parts of thy book, from whence my reason and conscience might with ease find out and with certainty infer this doctrine, I should have joyfully employed all my reasoning powers, with their utmost skill and activity, to have found out this inference, and ingrafted it into my soul.
8 Thou hast taught me, Holy Father, by thy prophets, that the way of holiness in the times of the Gospel, or under the kingdom of the Messiah, shall be a highway, a plain and easy path; so that the wayfaring man, or the stranger, 'though a fool, shall not err therein.' And thou hast called the poor and the ignorant, the mean and the foolish things of this world, to the knowledge of thyself and thy Son, and taught them to receive and partake of the salvation which thou hast provided. But how can such weak creatures ever take in so strange, so difficult, and so abstruse a doctrine as this, in the explication and defense whereof multitudes of men, even men of learning and piety, have lost themselves in infinite subtleties and dispute, and endless mazes of darkness? And can this strange and perplexing notion of three real Persons going to make one true God, be so necessary and so important a part of that Christian doctrine, which, in the Old Testament and the New, is represented as so plain and so easy, even to the meanest understandings?
9 O thou Searcher of hearts, who knowest all things, I appeal to thee concerning the sincerity of my inquiries into these discoveries of thy word. Thou knowest me, thou hast seen me, and hast tried my heart toward thee : If there be any lurking hypocrisy in my heart, any secret bias toward anything but truth, uncover it, O Father of lights, and banish it from my soul forever. If thine eye discovers the least spark of any criminal prejudice in any corner of my soul, extinguish it utterly, that I may not be led astray from the truth, in matters of such importance, by the least glance of error or mistake.
10 Thou art witness, O my God, with what constancy and care I have read and searched thy holy word, how early and late, by night and by day, I have been making these inquiries; how frequently I have been seeking thee on my bended knees, and directing my humble address to thee, to enlighten my darkness, and to show me the meaning of thy word, that I may learn what I must believe, and what I must practice with regard to this doctrine, in order to please thee, and obtain eternal life.
11 Great God, who seest all things! thou hast beheld what busy temptations have been often fluttering about my heart, to call it off from these laborious and difficult inquiries, and to give up thy word and thy Gospel as an unintelligible book, and betake myself to the light of nature and reason; but thou hast been pleased by thy Divine Power to scatter these temptations, and fix my heart and hope again upon that Savior and that eternal life which thou hast revealed in thy word, and proposed therein to our knowledge and our acceptance. Blessed be the name of my God, that has not suffered me to abandon the Gospel of his Son Jesus! And blessed be that Holy Spirit that has kept me attentive to the truth delivered in the Gospel, and inclined me to wait longer in my search of these Divine truths, under the hope of thy gracious illumination!
12 I humbly call thee to witness, O my God, what a holy jealousy I ever wear about my heart, lest I should do the slightest dishonor to thy supreme Majesty, in any of my inquiries or determinations. Thou seest what a religious fear, and what a tender solicitude I maintain on my soul, lest I should think or speak anything to diminish the grandeurs and honors of thy Son Jesus, my dear Mediator, to whom I owe my everlasting hopes. Thou knowest how much afraid I am of speaking one word, which may be construed into a neglect of thy blessed Spirit, from whom I hope I am daily receiving happy influences of light and strength. Guard all the motions of my mind, O Almighty God, against everything that borders upon these dangers. Forbid my thoughts to indulge and forbid my pen to write one word, that should sink those grand ideas which belong to thyself, or thy Son, or thy Spirit. Forbid it, O my God, that I should ever be so happy as to unglorify my Father, my Savior, or my Sanctifier, in any of my sentiments or expressions concerning them.
13 Blessed and faithful God, hast thou not promised that the meek thou wilt guide in judgment, the meek thou wilt teach thy way? Hast thou not told us by Isaiah thy prophet, that thou wilt bring the blind by a way which they knew not, and wilt lead them in paths which they have not known? Hast thou not informed us by thy prophet Hosea, that if we follow on to know the Lord, then we shall know him? Hath not thy Son, our Savior, assured us, that our heavenly Father will give his Holy Spirit to them who ask him? And is he not appointed to guide us into all truth? Have I not sought the gracious guidance of thy good Spirit continually? Am I not truly sensible of my own darkness and weakness, my dangerous prejudices on every side, and my utter insufficiency for my own conduct? Wilt thou leave such a poor creature bewildered among a thousand perplexities, which are raised by the various opinions and contrivances of men to explain thy Divine truth?
14 Help me, heavenly Father, for I am quite tired and weary of these human explainings, so various and uncertain. When wilt thou explain it to me thyself, O my God, by the secret and certain dictates of thy Spirit according to the intimations of thy word? Nor let any pride of reason, nor any affectation of novelty, nor any criminal bias whatsoever, turn my heart aside from hearkening to these Divine dictates of thy word and thy Spirit. Suffer not any of my native corruptions, nor the vanity of my imagination, to cast a mist over my eyes, while I am searching after the knowledge of thy mind and will, for my eternal salvation.
15 I entreat, O most merciful Father, that thou wilt not suffer the remnant of my short life to be wasted in such endless wanderings, in quest of thee and thy Son Jesus, as a great part of my past days have been; but let my sincere endeavors to know thee, in all the ways whereby thou hast discovered thyself in thy word, be crowned with such abundant success, that my soul being established in every needful truth by thy Holy Spirit, I may spend my remaining life according to the rules of thy Gospel, and may, with all the holy and happy creations, ascribe glory and honor, wisdom and power to Thee, who sittest upon the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.

 2011/6/25 3:05
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi,at least...

 2011/6/25 6:44Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: ? Is God Really Three Persons ?

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

I would say this is the foundational verse upon which the doctrine of the trinity rests. We can debate all day long about whether the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct entity from the Father and the Son, or whether the Holy Spirit is the expression of God on the earth and is only a "part" of God. I think the entire debate a bit of a rabbit trail that, in my opinion, is a dead end and fruitless trail.

God is Spirit, John 4:24. This statement takes a lot of things out of the realm of my ability to reason. It is a mystery to a certain extent. It is similar to Rev 3-5 where we find three mentions of the seven spirits of God. We might ask the question whether we should adopt the doctrine of the septinity. :-) It is enough to know this. In 1 John we find that one true and living God has manifested Himself to us in three distinct expressions. How those three interrelate is perhaps a point that it is not terribly profitable to try to wrangle with. He is ONE God, and He is Spirit, and He has revealed Himself as triune. But at the same time we know that the Father has never physically come to earth but rather sent His son. And, upon ascending into the heavenlies the Son sent the Holy Spirit of God to baptize and to empower us (the paraklete) to walk as J.G. Lake used to say "god-men" or men filled with the power and glory of God through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.


_________________
Travis

 2011/6/25 9:17Profile









 Re:

to ccchhhrrriiisss and twayneb,

Personally, the validity of Mt 28:19 and I Jn 5:7 seems suspect to tampering,
being added to the text recieved--Textus Receptus--
by the Anglican Church--who translated the KJV--
from the Roman Catholic Church's mss.
prior to the advent of Angicanism.

These verses are not found in older more reliable N.T. Koine' manuscripts.

ccchhhrrriiisss:

If you are supposed to baptise in the name of the Holy Spirit (or the Father ftm),
why is it that New Testament accounts that do reveal details
only use the name of Jesus and not that 'formula'?

This verse (or idea) is not found in any other scriptures, but it is contradicted and one should know that scripture confirms itself.

Several sources have confirmed that it was added to, yet who but God really knows not being present when it was written.

If you will, it's asked that you will show some other verses that you see to agree with even the concept, (aside from the one twayneb has provided).


twayneb:
i have been spending many months going through the books of John daily: reading, studying, memorizing, meditating. Still, when first beginning this little project
--that has blown all out of proportion except for the fact that knowing God's revelation of Himself is key to all else God is, does and says--
,there were certain portions that just not seem to fit. Being uneasy inside about these, much time was spent researching the specifics behind these verses and portions of scripture.

The verse you quote nowhere else fits into any of what John says, with the possible exception of Revelation, though these few verses do not state any such thing specifically.

"IN THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES LET ALL THINGS BE ESTABLISHED."

There is not sufficient support Biblically nor historically to establish any doctrine based on these two verses.

Have you two listened to the sermon and read the threads that the links provided in the first post lead to?

Have you read through the first and second posts from here on this thread (p1 and p2)?

Have you looked at "The New Catholic Theological Dictionary" under "TRINITY"--(dogma of)?

Have you looked at the changes made to "the faith once and for all delivered" by reading through the various ecumenical/catholic councils of the 4th century?

Where in the Bible do you guys see that the Holy Spirit:
--does not come to us from Christ Jesus
--is not Jesus Christ the Lord (in spirit)
--is a person other than Christ Jesus
--is another person, and not the Father and the Son
(the Spirit of these two united in presence, purpose and power (i.e. 'name) manifested to us, in us, through us as we walk in the Spirit--of our Lord Jesus Christ , and everywhere present?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Thank you everyone who has written so far (nobody excluded).

i have not been mad about this at all . . .only grieved and broken inside. . .not because of anything here has written or said mind you.

The more truly we understand God's person in His character and whatever aspect of his person or nature, the closer we come to apprehending Him rationally.

God knows me and i know him by many experiences
that have probably made me crazier than most,
(others say i am radical and a God fearer and insane sometimes)
and except for a recent bout of anger with Him
(stupid huhn?)
that could have resulted in death
(in which i was pleading and acting towards that request)
. . .He provided what i needed to set me back on the straight and narrow, and not what i wanted.

God is not safe,
But He is kind and merciful:
glorious in His goodness.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Lysa and Jesus-is-God,

Your posts are encouraging to me.

Jesus is God, thank you for that awesome link, and both of you will be written, heart to heart.

JiG,
so much to take in so the respose on this thread remains to be posted on this thread; but that was Jesus in the Garden even as He was covenant establisher/Law giver to Moshe and Israel's children, and every angel of the LORD. . .and so much more.

-----------------------------------------------------------

God Bless you all brothers and sisters!

Don't know when i'll get to write ya'll again again,maybe tomorrow, maybe not.
but would rather see all of you soon in the clouds of glory with Faithful and True.

Mara Natha!

i asked God about it
because Renouncer advised me to spend time meditating 2Tim,
so that is where and what will be central (before most other things normally pursued) for the time being.



Shabbat Shalom,
gregg



 2011/6/25 16:24
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Was it the Holy Spirit that hang on the Cross?

What Ghost did Jesus give up at His death?

If Jesus is God, how could the Holy Spirit come upon Him at His baptism of John?

Is the another Comforter the Holy Spirit or not?

Is the Spirit of Christ in our rebirth the same as the Another Comforter, Jesus ask the Father to send to us.

And He will not leave us either and will come to us?

Father, Son, Holy Spirit; One God, three manifested natures and Jobs to do in the believers life.

Father, sends the incorruptable Seed and we become born again. The Son, He is the incorruptable Seed, for without His Spirit we are none of His. The Holy Spirit is the power of the Seed of Christ from the Father who shows us all things that Jesus said and did and even things we don't understand.

In Christ, by the Father through the Holy Spirit:

Phillip

Just like the virgin Birth, The Seed of Christ in Mary by the Father and given power by the Holy Spirit to bring forth a Son, Just like us as sons'.


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Phillip

 2011/6/25 17:43Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4527


 Re:

Hi Phanetheus...

Quote:

Personally, the validity of Mt 28:19 and I Jn 5:7 seems suspect to tampering,
being added to the text recieved--Textus Receptus--
by the Anglican Church--who translated the KJV--
from the Roman Catholic Church's mss.
prior to the advent of Angicanism.



I believe that this claim is incorrect.

In fact, it is the reason why I included the NIV (1984) of this particular passage alongside the KJV and NASB...because it was found in all of the most reliable non-Textus Receptus manuscripts used by the translators of the NIV. The translators of the NIV were quick to include footnotes regarding variation...and they didn't do so in this case. It is also found in versions that predated the KJV (such as the Stephenus Greek version...which includes the "kai" words).

All of the early Alexandrian text-type papyri manuscripts for Matthew 28 contain this. So, I wouldn't understand why someone would claim otherwise. I am interested in what information that you would base such a statement upon. Do you have a citation?

So far, the only websites and documents that I can find that make such a claim are from biased Jesus-only (non-Trinity) believing websites. Most of them quote the same biased, anti-Trinity article that claims that "Constantine wrote Matthew 28:19 into your Bible." It is quite a claim to make -- but I just can't agree with such an allegation even if I believed many of the very things that the little article claimed. The claims of the little article just don't pass the muster of academic scrutiny.

This particular article, and others like it, tend to point to the writings of Eusebius of Caesarea as "proof." It is important to remember that Eusebius was NOT reciting verses verbatim throughout his writings. He was more or less TEACHING and providing COMMENTARY about matters addressed. Every Sunday, we have preachers who inject passages into their messages that are more or less abridgments of Scripture emphasizing the concept that they are stressing. This could be exactly what Eusebius was doing, because other examples in his writings suggest as much.

It is also important to remember that we know very little about the life of Eusebius anyway. We don't know if he had complete manuscripts of Scripture in his possession outside of the Septuagint -- a rarity at the time -- or was working from memory. We also don't know what kind of person he was. After all, by the end of the 1st Century, there were already sects with flawed teachings. How do we know that Eusebius, who was born more than a couple of centuries after most of the apostles died, wasn't guilty of injecting sectarian dogma within his extrapolation of Scripture?

I researched this quite intently a few years ago. However, I will be looking more into this during my free time later this week.

Quote:

If you are supposed to baptise in the name of the Holy Spirit (or the Father ftm),
why is it that New Testament accounts that do reveal details
only use the name of Jesus and not that 'formula'?

This verse (or idea) is not found in any other scriptures, but it is contradicted and one should know that scripture confirms itself.

Several sources have confirmed that it was added to, yet who but God really knows not being present when it was written.



First of all, you are basing this upon the premise that Matthew 28:19 is an addition to the Word of God...but with little-to-no proof to substantiate such a claim. The "sources" that you failed to cite cause me to wonder whether or not you consulted an article (or a few articles) that seemingly validated your views...or whether or not you went deeper and actually researched the verse in question. Did you go to online databases or archives and read the ancient papyri manuscripts for the passage? Did you contact manuscript scholars to inquire of their views? Sometimes, I am concerned that our level of "convincing" is slightly skewed.

Secondly, I am always puzzled by people who believe that we must recite a certain "formula" regarding baptism. So what if I am baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? If they truly are one and there is no "Trinity" as some would have everyone believe, then a person baptizing others under such a phrase would simply be repeating three different titles of God. If someone is baptized "only" in the name of Jesus Christ, then they are still being baptized nonetheless.

I think that it is an example of people making a sectarian "mountain" our of a theological "molehill." The thief on the cross next to Jesus was saved WITHOUT water baptism. After all, baptism is a public identification with Christ. It is by FAITH that we are saved.

What if a deaf and mute person was baptized by a deaf and mute preacher? Is their baptism no less "effective" or "meaningful" to God because of the minister couldn't speak a particular set of words? Of course not!

Quote:

If you will, it's asked that you will show some other verses that you see to agree with even the concept, (aside from the one twayneb has provided).



Isaiah 6:1-10
Matthew 3:16-17
Matthew 11:27
Matthew 22:44
Matthew 24:36
Matthew 26:64
Mark 1:10-11
Mark 13:32
Mark 16:19
Luke 1:35
Luke 3:22
Luke 22:69
John 1:1
John 1:32
John 5:18
John 10:30
John 12:34-35
John 14:28
John 16:15
John 20:28
Acts 2:34-35
Acts 7:55
Romans 8:11
Romans 8:14-17
Romans 8:26-27
II Corinthians 13:14
Galatians 1:1
Colossians 1:16
Colossians 2:9
Hebrews 1:1-12
Hebrews 9:14
I Peter 1:2

This is just a quick list from the New Testament that I made a few years ago, but I can provide more if you so desire.


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Christopher

 2011/6/25 18:14Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

The bible is clear about God being one. There are not three God’s agreeing as one anywhere in scripture.

I am surprised at you Phanetheus trying to discredit some verses in the bible to try and prove your theory. People are always having trouble trying to prove that God is three but one. The bible never says that God is three or two but it always says that God is one.

Notice 1 John 5:7 (NKJV) For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Then look at 1 John 5:8 (NKJV) And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

Do you not see the difference in “agreeing as one” than in “these three are one”.

The bible even says in 1 Corinthians 8:6 (NKJV) yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Notice it says there is one God, the Father and in many scriptures in the bible it attributes the Father as God, the son as God, and the Holy Spirit as God. This troubles our intellect because then we are trying to figure this out so we even have different views concerning the trinity and some refusing that God is even triune. It is obvious that God is a triune being because there are three in heaven the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit but notice it doesn’t say that they are three God persons that agree as one because it doesn’t mention three different deities but simply says “these three are one”.

Now we know that the Father is God with His Word proceeding from Him as well as His Spirit also proceeding from Him. The Word and the Spirit derive from the Father. They do not exist outside of the Father. The Father is never without His Word or His Spirit. The Word is never without the Father and the Spirit. The Spirit is never without the Word and the Father. Why is this? It is because they are one. We say the Word is God because it is of the Father. We say the Spirit is God because it is of the Father but it is also of the Word. God is triune but one in essence. Jesus even said when we receive Him we also receive the Father who sent Him.

I will have to stop for now but may be able to pick this back up later.

Blessings in Christ to all!

 2011/6/25 23:48Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

gregg: You asked a few questions and when I read them several things came to mind.

Quote:
Where in the Bible do you guys see that the Holy Spirit: --does not come to us from Christ Jesus --is not Jesus Christ the Lord (in spirit) --is a person other than Christ Jesus --is another person, and not the Father and the Son (the Spirit of these two united in presence, purpose and power (i.e. 'name) manifested to us, in us, through us as we walk in the Spirit--of our Lord Jesus Christ , and everywhere present?



When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist we see the Holy Spirit descending upon Him. It was the power of the Holy Spirit that allowed Jesus to be the Christ, to do the things that He did. Christ means the anointed one. It is a term that has a lot of significance. You mentioned studying the book of John. In chapter 14 of John we find some very interesting statements. Jesus in one discourse with the disciples implies that the He will send the comforter cannot come and calls the Holy Spirit another comforter (implying that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity other than Himself), that it is the Father in Him that allowed Him to do what He has done (implying the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of the Father), and tells the disciples that He Himself will come to them as the comforter (implying that the comforter is the Spirit of Christ).

The Mormons have some very interesting (odd) arguments and doctrines. They make a big deal sometimes about arguing that God had a physical body. It is to them a pretty big deal it seems. Of course we look at that and say, "How ridiculous is this argument?"

Here is my point in the last two paragraphs. God is spirit. We know that He has revealed Himself to us through His word and through what He has done in our lives and in the lives of others. We know that He is outside of time since He created time. We cannot comprehend something that is timeless because we are bound by time. I know you have heard the old one dimensional being who can only see in two dimensions trying to explain a three dimensional world example before. I think it was Art Katz that said, "God is other".

We can try to determine if God is triune or as someone said biune or as I jokingly suggested septune. Perhaps it is a somewhat interesting discussion and perhaps it can spur someone to search deeper in scripture, but in the final analysis I wonder just how profitable it really is. God has revealed Himself to us in three distinct manifestations. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. We understand that there is a distinct relationship between Father and Son, and yet we find many statements in scripture that the Father and Son are one. One God, two persons if you will. I am not totally sure I completely understand that relationship, but I accept it and think of it in the only terms I can understand (Father and son relationship). The Holy Spirit is a third distinct manifestation. I have always called the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God and understood that He comes from God. But since God is Spirit I am not sure the picture of Him coming from the Father as though He was a part of the inner soul of God as we understand our own spirit to be the inner part of who we are is an adequate picture to understand who the Holy Spirit really is.

I am much more interested in being filled with the Holy Spirit and having the same power that raised Christ from the dead dwelling and working in me. I am not so sure I want to have a concise paradigm of the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as I want to know God in a very personal and intimate way. It is enough, I guess, for me to understand that there are three distinct manifestations in scripture and be OK with understanding the interconnectedness of the three when I am in a glorified body and can stand before God in person and worship Him forever.

I hope that came across the way I intended it to come across.
1. The discussion, while it can be interesting, is a bit like discussing brush strokes, canvas, and the mixing of colors when all along the artist wants us to step back and see the message that the painting was intended to convey.
2. The fact that God is spirit and we have a limited ability to comprehend Him other than the way He has revealed Himself to us in His word means that we are probably never going to understand these relationships until we see Him as He is in the end of all things (Which, Praise the Lord, is soon I believe.)

Blessings Gregg. You have caused me to go back and read carefully.


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Travis

 2011/6/26 8:55Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Travis, you wrote: """Jesus in one discourse with the disciples implies that the He will send the comforter cannot come and calls the Holy Spirit another comforter (implying that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity other than Himself), that it is the Father in Him that allowed Him to do what He has done (implying the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of the Father), and tells the disciples that He Himself will come to them as the comforter (implying that the comforter is the Spirit of Christ)."""

Let me see if I have got this straight; The Holy Spirit "another Comforter" is different from the Comforter Jesus Christ, but One with the Father. The Holy Spirit being the power of the truth of the Christ born again in us? The Spirit of Christ being new eternal life and the Holy Spirit being the enabeler of this life by a Seal put upon our new eternal life by The Spirit of Christ birthed in us and also The Holy Spirit sent by the Father at the prayer of Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit being our Parakleet, Teacher of the Words of Jesus to all who have been given ears to hear and eyes to see. We being all baptized into One Spirit, Three manifestations of who we are baptized into. God the Father, making us sons, Jesus Chrsit the Seed of the Father making us sons, The Holy Spirit in us, as with Mary, The Holy Spirit come upon us making new life confirmed.



In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2011/6/26 17:42Profile









 Re:

I feel the need to apologise for getting silly earlier on this thread. I wanted to post Isaac Watts prayer because the Triunity of GOD is so difficult for us humans with our tiny minds to understand, that even a great Pastor and hymn writer like Watts struggled with that understanding.
I also posted that even those in the Jesus-Only camp could be saved because of the confusion of it all, but what determines "Salvation" in a person should have been defined at that time. I don't believe that we can tell if someone is saved just because they speak in tongues [or by Any 'signs & wonders', in and by themselves], and I had given an example here, not too long ago, of someone who "prayed in tongues" in front of 6 adults, but all the adults, but not the two young teen girls, heard the same curse words - the two young teens heard just the 'tongues'. GOD's protection over the young in Christ. HE is very protective over His young ones - His lambs!
Also, there are those who are 'speaking in tongues' to Mary and there are homosexual groups that 'speak in tongues' and I imagine we've all seen endless counterfeits out there by now.


I'm sorry for not being clearer, but on a happy note, "When I Survey The Wondrous Cross" is one of my top 5 favorite hymns. Incredible words.



Praying.
Phil 3:10-16









 2011/6/26 23:37





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