This has been pulled off of the " 2 Thesalonians 2 The coming of Jesus and our gathering to him" thread:
A sideline comment was first written by yours truly, as follows:
"[Still, i'm more than ever a twinitarian, which does not sit well with many]; but what do the scriptures say about the issue?
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. . ."
Then Christinyou responded with:
"Twin?
"I" don't believe so.
John 14:23-26 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love ((me,)) he will keep ((my)) words: and **my** Father will love him, and ((we)) will come unto him, and make ((our)) abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, ((but the Father's which sent me.)) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet (who's presence?) present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
All three, Trin; Jesus, The Father, The Comforter Holy Spirit.
About 2 Thess, Do we really believe that the timing of the end times is up to Satan, man, Nations or any thing else that puts itself above God. Sounds like giving satan the credit for Gods timing and Christs Cross. "The unpardonable sin"?
Twin takes away the birthing of Christ in the believer, the incorruptable Seed of the Father, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". "New Creature, New Creation life".
In Christ: Phillip
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Response to the query "About 2 Thess. . ." is on that thread.
Dear Brother "In Christ:'Phillip' "
We have had differences regarding the issue of the Holy Spirit, and punning 'twinity' was not called for or was it? Do you prefer (more appropriately) Dunity?
'Twinity' as in "He [Christ Jesus] is the image [the very same stamp-pressed coinage] of the invisible God," or "The fullness of the godhead bodily."
Nowhere do the scriptures state this regarding the Holy Spirit. In fact, rather than saying the holy spirit is God, the Bible repeatedly says the contrary. The Bible says the holy spirit is "of God." The scriptures never tell us anywhere God's spirit is completely God in all His fullness.
By analogy, the spirit of a human is only part of a human: the core of their existence.
A human is not human until the human spirit has as body to express their soul.
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TO THOSE READING ALONG:
If you are interested in how all this is turning into what it will become, the following are links revealing (a hint of) the order as to how this realization progressed on SI:
A message through Bill McLeod:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=18112
This issue had been mentioned before when questions arose from learning of certain things via meditation on scriptures, however the two following threads are quite up front and more detailed than the others:
THREAD 1:
"I found this debate interesting "Trinity in the Old Testament"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=34842&forum=36&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0
&
THREAD 2:
Michael Brown and James White defend the doctrine of the Trinity"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35170&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0
In answer to those things not responded to in the above threads, if another responds to you with something somebody else said, is that response actually something that person learned through experience? Are those things their own words? How up close and personal is the response? In short, do they really believe what they are giving you information about?
(I DON'T KNOW, but which seems more at home, down to earth, real, and something that person has really thought through: a personal response or to qoute someone else?
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Nowhere in the Bible is the Holy Spirit referred to as 'something other than-Christ.' Rather the contrary is true. The Holy Spirit is referred to as "The Spirit of Christ" when referred to personally, rather than with the impersonality of the adjective "Holy" and the non-personal noun "Spirit."
There is only one Lord and Christ ordained by El Elyon, namely, YHShVH ha' Maschiach.
Please would you consider the same fact that budgie mentions about pronouns (mentioned above) regarding the linguistics of expletive adjectives.
[Consider 'paraklete" EQUALS "one called along side (us)" as comforter, advocate, counselor, and so much more.
All these adjectives are what Jesus is to us, so why would anybody dare say that the spirit OF God is something other than OF God's Christ, being God's very revealtion of Himself to humanity?
Throughout Jesus discourse in John chapters 14 thru 16 many fail to realize the fact that this is a prophecy where, at the beginning speaking of Himself in the 1st person as Jesus (Christ) on earth, he progressing through this discourse, shifting to 3rd person references of Christ (Jesus) in heaven as well as his His future ministry in the earth (after He is to be re-united with our Father, (see John 17.5)--
consider that none of the prophets, neither Jesus, nor any of the apostles, as well as nobody else throught the whole Bible has ever claimed that the Spirit of God is anything other than the fullness of all that God is, expressed in various ways through this physical venue called earth.
We have no example in the Bible:
--to consider this Spirit of the Lord and Christ as anything other than God's own personal spirit, the spirit --(to us, the real core is)-- of God, (rather than the person of God).
--to trust in the Holy Spirit
--to confess to the Holy Spirit
--to pray to the Holy Spirit
--to serve the Holy Spirit
--to worship or even praise THE 7 SPIRITS OF GOD (being one: the Holy Spirit)
. . . OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT THE PERSON's OF GOD, BE THIS FATHER OR SON, ARE TO RECIEVE THROUGH OUR COMMUNION and/or INTERACTION WITH HIM!
(though He does express Himself (and His Truth) through His own spirit--for God is spirit, and Holy at that.)
To say that the Holy Spirit is a seperate and distinct person from the Father and the Son, who are the Godhead might just be saying that God is not spirit.
As God has proclaimed, "My people shall know my name," even so, we are revealed both the names of our Father and (His only begotten:) our firstborn Brother in the scriptures. Nowhere is this true of His Shekinah (aka:spirit)!
Might this just be because the spirit of God is not a person at all?
. . .and that verse so many use as 'proof?' of trinity, Matthew 28.19, why do all NT Biblical accounts that reveal the name(s) used of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in baptism only use the name of Jesus???
(are we to be baptised into Christ or Anti<---(something other than) Christ?)
'Phillip?'
i beg of you, please respond to these things with the Bible book, chapter, verse, and line using your own words in comment.
(Onto your desire, i will re-study the quotes from commentaries you forewarded on the Brown/White debate thread, (the third link listed above). Whether i will or will nor be capable of responding in kind regarding those two authors comments remains to be seen. (I'm one (of a growing number) of those who have virtually disgarded all commentaries as less than secondary compared to:
original mss, what the Holy Spirit reveals, and thoughts regarding whatever God determines to reveal here<--all these things being cross referenced with other scriptures.)
Without the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, we would never have access to God as now, He in us, we in Him, He in the Father and the Father in Him. . .
. . .and the spirit OF God between us making us one is the spirit OF the Lord, the Spirit OF Christ, and not some indefinite impersonal--(neither is this spirit an it)--as a pronoun delineated with an adjective.
Shalom,
gregg |
