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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Strongest verse ever refuting "once saved always saved".

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 Re:

JiG

Considering the testimony, what has led you to believe the person you mentioned is a blood-bought child of God?


OJ

 2011/6/24 19:31









 Re:

Quote:
The warnings from Scripture regarding "being given over to believe a lie" and being "given over to a reprobate mind" are realities of not "loving the truth" of true 'Salvation'.




Yes, but the moralist joins the reprobate in this, therefore the dividing line is not open sin.

Bear in mind, I do not promote open sin, it is just as mguldner has said, the closer I have gotten to the Lord the clearer light I have seen myself in, so much so that I see no difference between myself and the guy in the gutter.



OJ


 2011/6/24 19:44









 Re:


I asked someone a question of that sort recently - "What do you say to or about someone who has never really ceased living in sin, like lying, immorality, self-centeredness, etc.?"

The person I asked that to came back with, Solomon.

Well, this man was like a Solomon in Biblical wisdom. He was an accomplished apologist - Greek exposition and all ... but now, thirty something yrs later ...

He had a very similar view of "grace" as I hear from those who believe we can live in sexual immorality as a life-style and still be saved.
I can't go any further into what happened to him. It's far too scarey. I'm sorry.

 2011/6/24 20:02









 Re:


I understand humility and what being in the presence of GOD does to make one feel "undone" and "a man of unclean lips" and fall on one's face as a dead --- but the point is - because we love Him, although we are acutely aware of our wretchedness - and you may see yourself as no different than the guy in the gutter -- you don't live like he does and you would never offer him that type of "Salvation".
I was a lot of things before salvation - but because He came and indwelt me, He changed my desires and my desires changed to desiring Him and His Word and wanting nothing else but. To me, it's still all about love. The more I grow to know Him, the deeper that love goes and the fear of GOD is the difference between where I stand now and me being in the gutter. I don't have to see myself as no different than the guy in the gutter - I've been made a new creation in Christ - but I need to love and fear Him.

 2011/6/24 20:14









 Re:

Quote:


I asked someone a question of that sort recently - "What do you say to or about someone who has never really ceased living in sin, like lying, immorality, self-centeredness, etc.?"

The person I asked that to came back with, Solomon.

Well, this man was like a Solomon in Biblical wisdom. He was an accomplished apologist - Greek exposition and all ... but now, thirty something yrs later ...

He had a very similar view of "grace" as I hear from those who believe we can live in sexual immorality as a life-style and still be saved.
I can't go any further into what happened to him. It's far too scarey. I'm sorry.



Self-justifying Christless testimony equals dead man, no need to question further. These are the kind that fill hell.

Now, a blasphemer {or insert favorite type of sinner here} hears the gospel, believes it and is saved. They know not the evils resident in their heart yet, nor how to deal with them and so continue on in what they know. Do you write them out of heaven?


OJ


 2011/6/24 20:45
sarahsdream
Member



Joined: 2011/6/16
Posts: 183


 Re:

Old_Joe

Quote:
the closer I have gotten to the Lord the clearer light I have seen myself in, so that I see no difference between myself and the guy in the gutter.



Your statement is so true. I think Isaiah saw his trueself when he said, "I am a man of unclean lips".

By seeing ourselves in His light, we know that our only hope is in Jesus. We are all most pitiful sinners. I also agree with what you said about growth being sometimes "indiscernable". I have come to see this is true. Another reason to place our complete hope in Him and not look at ourselves and judge ourselves as having arrived. Or compare ourselves with others. We will always look good when comparing ourselves with others because we will always look for others shortcomings (when we are in "comparision mode" as opposed to Love).

Is knowing the Bible, evidence of growth in Him? Is doing good deeds evidence of growth in Him? Is giving my body to be burned even evidence of growth in Him? 1 Cor 13, says no.

I think many that we don't think will be in heaven, WILL BE in heaven (the man in the gutter) and many we think will be in heaven, WON'T BE in heaven.

Those who self-justify themselves will not be in heaven.

Many times I wish I could see true Christianity around me because I see so much that is false. I guess that is the way it is suppose to be. And the Lord always brings the focus back on me, to be true, to trust in Him and not myself.

This walk is hard and difficult. Is it not meant to be? I feel like I am constantly in warfare. Is this typical? If I don't feel a war have I succumbed and surrendered to sin?

Some people make it sound like once you are saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, all is beautiful and well and you are dripping with fruit. I don't feel this way. The closer I want to get to God, the more obstacles I encounter. Myself for one. Are some people just gifted and talented in such a way that outwardly they look so victorious but really don't have a deep life with God? This is my question and my fear, that I will learn how to "be good" at walking around as a "victorious" Christian, how to "play the game", I guess you could say. And then become content in my spiritual deception that "I am so spiritual". This is fearful to me, because I would stop running to the Lord. I would have learned how "to use Him" for my own ends and appear so holy to everyone.

Am I making any sense to anyone? Am I the only one that has these battles?

I am a fairly new believer and am not put off by what Old_Joe says. I find what he says refreshing and truthful and it speaks to my limited experiences. Being born-again, I am not afraid to hear the truth and much rather prefer it to rose colored glasses. Besides, what could be worse than what God has already shown me about myself? I have already been destroyed in exchange for Him and welcome more destruction (for I know there is more dying to do) if it brings me closer to Him. It does not bother me in the least if fruit that He is developing in me does not come to maturity for a long time. I can see how this might be possible in my spirit and in fact most probable.

Let me ask a question to all of you that have walked with God for years and years. When did you start seeing true eternal fruit in your lives that the Lord is pleased to receive and eat? If you say one or two years, then I must be a very miserable child of His, but even here, I won't compare myself with you. I can only compare myself to Him and in doing so, I will always fall short, but gladly as long as I am keeping my eyes on Him. I guess the thing we must all watch out for is our love growing cold and we just "play the game", because we have gotten so good at it.

With love,
Sarah

 2011/6/24 21:10Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Are not all called? The few that are chosen are birthed by God and He does not ask if the chosen want to be chosen. If it were not for the few that are chosen there would be none, no not one that would choose God.

We are saved completely in Spirit, that is where our new life is. The Spirit of Christ "born again" in the ones that are chosen and given to Christ by the Father. This body of flesh is still on the road to distruction, death. This soul, that is now separated by the two edged sword, is on the road to becoming the mind, will and intellect of the mind of Christ and even different in every one of God's chosen sons, as different as the flowers of the field.

So why did God not choose to renew the body of flesh at the same time as the Spirit of Christ birthed in us, or renew our mind to the Mind of Christ at the same time. Then is when we would become robots as those that won't accept the election and choosing of God, robots as the reason man has a choice in his salvation. We do not, but we do have a choice in the Love affair that God wants from His chosen sons. Now I can choose to love God as a free will to give God and His Son and the Holy Spirit all the Glory and Love they desirve and want and glory in. Can you believe that God wants to Glory in the small love I can return to Him of my own free will. For I can do this by the Spirit and Mind of Christ through the power and direction of our Teacher and Comforter the Holy Spirit.

Paul declares it and Jesus Commands it. Love.

Colossians 1:4-8 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

By this we know that we are the son's of God.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

The old commandment, Love God, the New commandment, love one another.

This is what this undeserved, lost and sinful son has been blessed with that we might overcome and Love "as He loved us and gave Himself for us".

In Christ by the Love of the Father and the Love and sacrifice of the Son and the Work of the Holy Spirit:

Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2011/6/24 21:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Self-justifying Christless testimony equals dead man, no need to question further. These are the kind that fill hell.



No Brother - He wasn't "Christless" when I met him and his ministry was incredible to prisoners and others. I refuse to give him up to hell. I would have given my life during any part of those 30 something yrs if it would do anything to get him to Heaven.
He helped me when I was fairly young in Christ, and I was going more with the spiritual gifts than with the appreciation of the absolute beauty of His Word, more than I could ever tell you or Thank GOD for, because GOD wanted me to have both, the workings of His Spirit AND His Word - but he couldn't grasp his own personal obedience and fell slowly but finally very-very hard.



Quote:
Now, a blasphemer {or insert favorite type of sinner here} hears the gospel, believes it and is saved. They know not the evils resident in their heart yet, nor how to deal with them and so continue on in what they know. Do you write them out of heaven?




I don't have a "favorite type of sinner" but I know what happened to me and all of the friends I've made since coming to Christ. He made Himself real from day one. It was gradual and one by one He would point things out from day one and they would go - starting with the burger biggies first and on until the day we die with the dying to self but nothing like we're hearing of in these days - of decades in that one sin - those listed in the two passages I posted on the previous page plus Rev 21:8, etc.

His purpose is that we come into the Image of Christ Himself, that we walk in His Spirit the way He did while He was on earth. Looking up to Him for our thoughts, words, actions and all... that's an ongoing learning process - but it's not the things that He says will not inherit the Kingdom. I know some very Christ-like people, but neither they nor I could say that they're walking in His Spirit 24/7, but they want to be. You can't help but notice a difference in someone who has been truly indwelt and regenerated by GOD.
Your question sort of pushes a bit with the "Do you write them out of heaven?"
The Holy Spirit is FAITHFUL to show us what needs to go and gives the power for us to let it go. HE is Faithful.

 2011/6/24 21:24









 Re:


Shows you how slow I am posting. Two people have posted since I posted to you, Joe.

If we can ever get back to what HE has said in His Word ...


Have a great weekend in Him.

 2011/6/24 21:35
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Dear Sarah,

You said:

Quote:
Am I making any sense to anyone? Am I the only one that has these battles?



Hearing you 'loud and clear.' You are not alone.

Kind regards,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2011/6/24 22:11Profile





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