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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7504


Yes King Herod and not God. There is a big difference.

Mr. Banks, did you forget that God through the prophets foretold this event? Jeremiah 31:15 (NASB):

15Thus says the LORD,
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
Lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
She refuses to be comforted for her children,
Because they are no more.”

Seems to me one should quit using the word blame in referring these catastrophic events. It is man who sinned and it is God who allows these events to force people to think of their own mortality and their standing before God Almighty. The book of Revelation is filled with this concept: God sends calamities and the result is that "they still did not repent". So one cannot say they were not warned.

The purpose of these storms is always to afflict the comfortable, to help him understand that he is not as much in control as he thinks he is. We need to understand this and live it.

Your'e sounding like a (fill in the blank)because they blame God for every calamity.

I have no clue who you are talking about - I do not keep up with modern day writers and their philosophies. I just know what the Book says and know right well that life reflects its accuracy.

Sandra Miller

 2011/5/24 8:08Profile


After the Cross, we never see God dealing with whole cities and nations this way. Individual people? From time to time. Masses of people? Never.

People are judged individually, but nations are ONLY judged in the here and now for their policies. As the policies adhere to the word of God, the nations are blessed, but as they move away from this the blessing is removed. This is what caused the fall of Rome, the fall of the British Empire, and is causing the fall of the American Empire? Tornadoes, hurricanes and earthquakes etc. act as means of bankrupting the nations.

If you've seen Jesus' actions towards unbelieving and even outright wicked societies, you've seen God the Father's actions as well. With that being said, could you picture the man Jesus Christ ordering a devastating tornado upon the citizens of Joplin? Could you imagine the man Jesus conjuring up a furious earthquake in order to bring Japan to their knees?

Who do you think this is?

Rev 19:11-16

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


 2011/5/24 8:12


No matter any which way people want to spin it, be it disaster in Japan, Christchurch, New Orleans, Joplin, or wherever, it must be looked at through the lens of Amos 3:6;

Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?

I mean... it obviously says what it says.... every translation.

Just a thought.

 2011/5/24 8:28


A doctrine that gives people false security is a doctrine that will put them to sleep (slumber) spiritually. And a doctrine where God is love and Jesus does not hurt anyone because of sin, is a doctrine of demons and that is why there is little fear of God in the Church and scandals, sickness and death abound.

Exo 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

God has not changed. He still chastises His people and judges sin in the here and now will use sickness and other things to carry out His will. His Word is His will, so let's see what His Word says.

If you sin and get out of God's protective hedge you open yourself up to attacks from the Enemy. The Bible teaches this consistenly from OT to NT. Put your virtual scissors down and stop cutting out parts of the Bible that don't fit into your theology.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

No longer continue to sin. Jesus thus shows His knowledge that the sickness was the result of sin.

A worse thing, than even those thirty-eight years of suffering.

But no believer walking in the light qualifies for chastening or judgment. If you are walking with the Lord and staying out of gross sin, you do not qualify to get sick or die prematurely as judgment. However, there are things you can do that will get you out from under God's protection and open you up to sickness or worse, even under grace.

Herod killed for trying to steal God's glory

Acts 12:21-23 tells how God killed Herod because he attempted to take God's glory for himself. An angel of the Lord struck Herod with a fatal illness.

Bar-Jesus struck blind by the hand of the Lord

It is explicitly stated that the hand of the Lord, not the hand of Satan, struck Bar-Jesus the sorcerer blind in Acts 13:6-12. This was a supernatural blindness, not necessarily any kind of eye disease. No regular eye disease would instantly strike you blind and then let you see again later. This was a sign and a wonder to the people Paul was attempting to minister to. It was also a visible judgment on the sorcerer, who was trying to hinder the spreading of the gospel.

Jesus kills!

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

(into a bed - sickbed, deathbed). And all those who commit adultery (spiritual, physical or both) with her.

God uses the powers of darkness to carry out His sentences.

Judgment was not immediate. Jesus said in the verse just before the ones above that he "gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not." Even in her gross sin, mercy was extended to her for a season. But when she would not repent, Jesus pronounced judgment against her. This was necessary to protect his church at Thyatira. If he allowed this self-named prophetess to continue seducing and misleading his people, the church at Thyatira would be in danger. Jesus had to take her out of the way.

Let this be a warning to anyone who would try to lead the people of God into immorality. Jesus will give you space to repent, but eventually judgment will fall, and it will hurt.

Ananias and Sapphira lie and die

Acts 5:1-11 shows that lying can lead to dying even under the New Covenant. Ananias and Sapphira fell dead as judgment for lying to Peter about the money that they gave.

Many Corinthians get sick and many die for failure to "judge themselves"

1 Cor 11:27-32 says that many Christians at Corinth were made sick and many died because they would not "judge themselves" regarding their sin. In this case, they were eating the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner.

They were eating and drinking damnation (judgment) on themselves by treating holy things lightly. They were "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." This kind of mistake cost Nadab, Abihu and Uzzah their lives, cost King Uzziah his health, and cost King Saul his throne in the Old Testament. All these people attempted to perform a priestly function that was not theirs to perform. They were taking the holy things of God lightly.

The people getting weak and sickly and dying were the Corinthian believers, not unbelievers! Paul said that those judged were "among you." Paul wasn't warning unbelievers; he was warning believers.

"For if we should judge ourselves, we should not be judged" makes it clear that the context is believers who will not take the things of God seriously or who willfully persist in sin. It is perfectly clear from this statement that no believer walking in the light will suffer this kind of judgment.

Even this judgment shows the mercy of God. Some of these people could have completely fallen from grace if God had not intervened. "But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

Unfortunately, God does have to remove people from his Body who are causing trouble within it. The idea is not to be one of these people.

Partaking of the wrath of God on the disobedient

Eph 5:5-7 shows that even a believer can be a partaker of the wrath of God if he gets into serious sin. Ephesians was written to believers! Paul warned them not to be a partaker of the wrath of God that comes on the disobedient because of their sin.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Col 3:25 also makes it clear that a believer can receive recompense for the wrong he does.

Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

1 Thess 4:6 warns believers that God avenges adultery.

1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

Destroying God's temple destroys you

1 Cor 3:16-17 1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Complainers destroyed

1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Sin brings down God's protective hedge in your life and opens you up to the attacks from the Enemy. There are never warnings of calamities for a child of God who stays out of sin. On the contrary, there are promises of blessings. And conversely, there are never promises of blessings to those who sin.

Judgment begins at the house of God

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

When God judged Israel in the book of Ezekiel, he said, "Begin at my sanctuary." The same principle holds true today. The time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). Those who persist in deliberate sin even when they know better will be judged.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh

1 Cor 5:1-5 orders a certain man committing incest to be "handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Sin is a cancer (leaven) that spreads and infects the church, therefore God judges it. Today, everyone is calling their sicknesses "blessings", to humble them, because they don't believe God judges like this.

The idea is that after his flesh started hurting, he would decide to repent and come back. This is a case where God authorizes the devil to afflict someone who is in sin. God is not doing the afflicting himself, but he is explicitly sanctioning it.

1 Tim 1:19-20: "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

The purpose of handing them over to Satan was not to vengefully curse them and get even with them. It was to cause them to come to their senses and quit sinning -- "that they may learn not to blaspheme" as opposed to "that they may get what's coming to them for blaspheming."

Sowing and reaping

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


James 5:14-16 says to confess your sins one to another and to pray for one another, that you may be healed. James said that when the elders anoint the sick in the name of the Lord, he will be forgiven of any sins. The implication seems to be clear from this passage that sin can bring on disease. Jesus definitely believed that. He told the man who had been infirm for 38 years to "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you" (John 5:2-19).

Therefore, it is a New Testament teaching that sin can bring on disease. God does not put it on you; you put it on yourself. Your disobedience to God opens the door to the devil.

This doesn't mean that everyone who is sick is in sin. It just means that sin can bring disease on you, and some people are sick because they are in sin.

"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry; for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience" (Colossians 3:5-6)

If we took this side of God seriously, there would be much more fear of God in the Church, and much less sin.

"Chastening" in Hebrews 12?
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Chastening for Paul for pride.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

This is in no way a treatise on the disaster in Joplin, Mo.

I have just noticed in this thread that there are many who think that God and Jesus only do "good" things for us because of Jesus' death on the cross.


 2011/5/24 9:37

Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219


Thank you for answering my question with New Testament referrences. This question cannot be answered by Amos, as Amos' words, and YES those spoken by God, are subject to the change in covenants and CANNOT be read outside of that context.

Now as to your referrences, I can't speak to them all at present as I'm on my phone, my thumbs are big, the keys are small and getting sore. :-). I will however, say that Paul's thorn in the flesh is clearly the persecution he experiences at the hands of men (messengers of Satan). Paul very clearly states this in the context of the verse. Also, the instance of sick and dying Corinthians most likely had less to do with God making men sick and die, and more with the poorer members of the body going unrecognized, or "not discerned" and dying from malnutrition...many commentators have written on the likelihood of this being the case. As for handing men over to Satan, you are correct, however, it wasn't the handiwork of God, but Satan, and yes, in these instances God did use Satan to afflict certain INDIVIDUALS, but not masses, cities, or nations. Men are dealt with on an individual basis and NOT lumped together and judged for other men's sins. To say that God hasn't changed in respect to judgment is absurd. Certainly the cross has accomplished something beyond securing your bus ticket to heaven. You and I and the cosmos have been reconciled to God...and He is not dealing with us according to our sins. Now, can spiritual misalignment cause Satan to have inroads into our lives. Sure. NOT the occasional stumbling of a brother, but the willful turning away and disobedience of the rebellious. In those cases, yes, Satan can gain an inroad, but the point I'm making is that it's NOT God...Also the Revelation passage concerning Christ coming to bring judgment is in reference to the day of judgment and wrath, NOT everyday life.


 2011/5/24 10:08Profile


This question cannot be answered by Amos, as Amos' words, and YES those spoken by God, are subject to the change in covenants and CANNOT be read outside of that context.

Sure, but where does it say He ever changed His mind regarding this? His relationship towards individuals has changed, yes, but what about nations? Contextually, according to the first century Hebrew mind, Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated (Romans 9:13), was talking about nations (as that's the context of the rest of that section). One being a vessel to which wrath would be poured out.

So before, every city that experienced disaster was planned and delivered by God, but now in the New Covenant, it's planned by... whom exactly?

Currently in the New Testament, now that Christ received total victory, who did He hand the reigns of His judgement over to?

 2011/5/24 10:17

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida


Brother Travis,

You said

Remember Jesus did not cause the storm on the sea of Galilee, but He did calm it.

In my humble opinion, God the Father caused the storm to give Jesus the occasion to calm it.

How can sin corrupt weather patterns?

If the distance of the storm was safe enough for my husband to satisfy his curiosity, he would have allowed me to be by his side viewing it. Or else, he would have had to tie me down. If there were children involved I would have pointed out to him his responsibility to stay alive to care for them, and me. But then that is just my view.

As for saying God controls some of the weather and not all of it doesn't sit well in my understanding. He is either in control - or he isn't. We can't pick and choose when we think He takes a hand. Especially in a believers life. My understanding is that Everything that happens in a believers life is from God. Every person who is put in front of you, God puts there. How we treat them is our Pound.

My prayers are for the Saints and those about to become Saints, in your damaged City and the World.

Praising Jesus for your safety,
white stone


 2011/5/24 10:45Profile

Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


EDIT (after I read more of this daunting and odd thread)

ONE of the issues being debated really seems to be a discussion between covenantal theology and dispensational theology. Perhaps that issue should be addressed (in another thread to respect forum etiquette?).


 2011/5/24 10:46Profile


Hi FireinmyBones1,

I know people believe different things and these beliefs have different sources (not always God's Word). We all want to believe that our beliefs come from God's Word but sometimes they don't. Sometimes they just come from men. We all need to be open to correction. For me right now, I have a different understanding of Paul's thorn in the flesh than you do. Of course I could be wrong, but here is how I see it.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

First, Paul speaks of this thorn in singular terms. "a thorn in the flesh".

In verse 8, he speaks of it as "it" not he or them (meaning human persecutors). "that IT may depart from me".

This shows that it was constantly with him.

He speaks of it as an "infirmity".

I believe the messenger from Satan was a "spirit of infirmity" that was allowed to buffet him in his body.

I am not saying that the evil spirit was in him, but that it was allowed to bring and hold an infirmity on him.

We know from Paul's other writings and beliefs that you cannot pray for persecution to go away permanently as he was praying for this "thing" as he calls "IT" to go away.

Paul tells us that persecution is normal to all those that live godly.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

He sought the Lord 3 times that IT might depart from him. If it was men persecuting him, he would not say IT. Plus, this goes against all his other teachings about persecution being part of the Christian walk.

Everything is not magically hunky-dory now that Jesus has come. God has NOT changed in respect to judgement. What has changed is that we now have a merciful high priest interceding for us daily and if we did not we would have been destroyed for our unbelief and sins a long time ago.

We should not think that no matter how we behave that God's immutable, eternal Word in the OT, has no effect anymore. The character of God has not changed in terms of rebellion and sin.

I think the scriptures cannot be clearer.

The Bible says that the "law is for transgressors".

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Now, you cannot very well call yourself a righteous man if you are committing sin and not repenting and thinking that "since I am righteous, because I was born-again, I can get away with a little sin".

1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

The Scriptures teach that if we walk in the Spirit we fulfill the law, right? So, what happens if we walk in the flesh? Would that make us transgressors of the law? And if we are transgressors of the law, will we be judged and come under the curses of the law?

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Walking in the flesh brings for death (judgment).

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Do we take ourselves out from the Lord's protective hedge in our life and expect no chastisement or judgement?

The Law has not died. We died in Christ and were released from the law to marry another and should walk in newness of life (in the Spirit). But if we walk in the flesh (transgress) then we will be subject to the curses of the law will we not?

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:


Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.


Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

THOU ART BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW. Uh oh, what happens when you transgress the law?

This is not preached. There is no fear of God today and because of that, the church is carnal and a laughingstock before the world. The world does not see the fear of God in the church.

All these catastrophes that are happening should cause us to draw near to God and reach out to people in mercy.

One difference between the OT and NT, is that we have a merciful and kind intercessor where in the OT, there was no one to permanently stand in the gap for us as individuals.

But we should not take advantage of God's grace and yet, that is what is being done, today.

Sorry, if this is not easy to follow. I wrote it quickly and I will be happy to clarify anything. This is what I believe the Word teaches and I also believe it through my own experience and the testimony of others.


 2011/5/24 12:16

Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219



Thanks for your reply. I have to say that I would have been shouting "Amen" a few years back. I know where you're coming from and can see your perspective. I've undergone a massive transformation in the last few years as I've studied the scriptures and have begun to come to different conclusions than the ones I once held to. I'm totally open to correction, this is just an issue that I feel passionate about as it truly seems to be a vice on the mind of the church.

Let me respond to the comments about Paul's thorn. In Numbers 33:55, Jos 23:13 & Judges 2:3, opposition from ungodly individuals and nations are called "thorns in your sides". I personally believe this to be what Paul was alluding to when he mentions being given a "thorn in his flesh". He does indeed call this "thorn" a messenger of satan, and then refers to it as an "it" as opposed to a "them". However, you must remember that Paul is speaking in a metaphor. He did not tell us the name of a person, a group or a physical malady. He simply called it a thorn. In calling it an "it", he is simply continuing usage of the metaphor.

Paul says:

"8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in ***weakness***." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. " (2 COR 12:8-10)

Paul seems to go on to state that his "infirmity" was akin to a need, persecution, distress & reproaches. We know that Paul promised all believers persecution. However, he also states that a special "allotment" of persecution seems to have been given to the apostles:

"8 You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us--and indeed I could wish you did reign, that we also might reign with you! 9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now." (1 COR 4:8-13)

My take on it anyways.


 2011/5/24 13:11Profile

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