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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Joplin , MO, takes a big hit by a tornado

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 Re:

Hi Lotis, you said........

"Lets all pray that everyone gets in a terrible accident so they can reflect properly on their need for a savior? This is a sickening thought"

Have you considered the words of our Saviour?

Mar 9:43 And if your hand offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to have two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

Mar 9:44 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mar 9:45 And if your foot offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

Mar 9:46 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mar 9:47 And if your eye offends you, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes to be cast into hell fire

If indeed a terrible accident brought about the salvation of a mans soul, would that not be better than that man living a " good life," and then spending an eternity in hell? Would not that very accident be seen as the greatest blessing one could wish for if it brought about eternal salvation ? Would God not have it that all men would simply bow the knee to His Son Jesus? Yes, I believe He would for the Word says that God would ahve that none should persih but that everyone would come to a saving knowledge. That is the heart of God. Yet, what is the heart of man? Rebellion, stiff-necked, idolotry and on and on. Mans pride blinds him to the truth and yet God continues to strive with men, praise God for HIs love and His mercy and His justice. Let God be true and all men be liars............brother Frank

 2011/5/27 11:23
Lotis
Member



Joined: 2006/9/26
Posts: 84


 Re:

No one responds to the question of why Joplin was judged for Washington's mistakes? Why is Obama alive (the apparent cause of all this) while families are crushed in JOPLIN, MO (a town I had never even HEARD OF before this). If tomorrow my house is destroyed in a storm is it because somewhere out there in America someone is sinning? Please people, this argument isn't even logical. Do you beat your child for your neighbors child's sin?

Under the Old Covenant God would have spared Sodom for TEN righteous, and now that we're under a NEW AND BETTER covenant of MERCY AND GRACE, he wont spare JOPLIN, MO (which I couldn't point to on a map) because of Washington DC's sin? SURELY you see how absolutely ABSURD this sounds at its core?

My concern here is that the god being lifted up in this thread is not Jesus. The majority of these posts are lifting up a murderous destroyer that looks absolutely nothing like Christ. My concern is that what we are promoting and projecting with this thread is a god who destroys small towns simply because he can, frankly I have yet to see anyone provide any evidence as to a REASON he would destroy Joplin, MO specifically.

This is not my Jesus, he will come one day riding a horse with a sword in his hand and there will be a great judgement where all men will give an account for what they've done. Today it seems at least so far, is not that day.


_________________
John

 2011/5/27 11:38Profile









 Re:


Count to 10 [pray] before reading this about "Westboro" -

On its website, the church writes, "Thank God for 125 dead in Joplin."

http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=461407


 2011/5/27 11:46
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi White_Stone,

Quote:

Chris, I am 100% certain the tornado was an act of God, NOT a random act of so-called nature.



Since you are 100% convinced, then there is no room in your mind for me to urge caution about blaming God or assigning a motive/cause/effect for this tragedy. As for some of us, we don't want to be guilty of making incorrect assumptions about the nature or heart of God.

After all, if this tornado was simply a terrible natural disaster that God did not supernaturally create (bypassing the normal order of weather) as an act of judgment -- then some people have unwittingly LIED about God (whether His motives, actions or character). That is dangerous ground for anyone to stand on, whether they are Job's friends or present day believers.

Quote:

When you say the acts which are foretold in The Revelation of Jesus Christ, you say they will be beyond the 'natural order.' It appears to me as if God is conditioning the ungodly to accept bigger and bigger 'natural' disasters. There is little doubt in my mind that they will eventually accept a meteor strike that will wipe out a whole continent and still not give God Almighty credit or reverence - they will not repent.

I can see this Country marred by tornadoes and other disasters to the point it will appear as the background for the movie 'Mad Max' and people will still not repent. And as long as most of them still have their creature comforts they will not consider their ways. Perhaps it is a mercy of God to remove the creature comforts and bring the people to where they HAVE to lean on Him. If you think of that it is possible to view the tornado in Joplin and the others, as well, as a great blessing.



I agree that, during the period of God's wrath, this world will be (as it is in the habit of) looking for answers and causes OUTSIDE of the truth of God's Word. I suspect that their hearts will be hardened by the very things mentioned in that passage previously mentioned (witchcraft, immorality, etc...).

However, the manner by which God pours out His wrath as recorded in John's Revelation is quite different from the normal order by which God designed this world. A third of the Earth will be destroyed...in a moment. There has NEVER been a weather pattern that has accomplished anything like that. A third of the stars will fall. That has never happened before. The moon will turn like blood. That doesn't sound like a typical reddish moon from an eclipse. Now, God could certainly use weather to accomplish some of those things. However, there isn't typical weather pattern on record as being violent or powerful enough to accomplish the things mentioned in Revelation. If it happened in such a manner, it would be a supernatural act of God where He bypassed the order of weather.

A tornado is NOT outside of normal order of weather. God certainly designed the order of this world. There are storms here on Earth...and even on Jupiter. I can't pretend to understand God's motives for such things...but just accept the fact that He is the Creator and that His ways are higher than mine.

There are typically about 1,200 tornadoes in the United States each year. This doesn't include many ocean/lake-based tornadoes (waterspouts) that never make it to land. Are we to assign blame for each and every one of those is part of the supernatural judgment of God -- even though most of them do not occur in populated areas or cause much damage or death? Or is it at all possible that they are the result of two converging fronts that produce storms? Remember: A tornado is produced by the SAME sort of weather effect as regular storm cells. However, the "supercells" that produce tornadoes come from weather fronts that are just a bit more powerful and bipolar (cold air v. warm air) and slam into one another.

Quote:

Chris, Chris, Chris, don't you see, to the one who these acts fall upon it is just that, an act of Judgment. Being in a life threatening car accident and being incapacitated for a long time gives a soul the opportunity to reflect on their life and their relationship with God. It is too easy to not reflect when there is a constant supply of food and comfort and entertainments. I do not pray for any accident to befall those for whom I pray but I pray God's will be done.



White_Stone, White_Stone, White_Stone (I couldn't resist ;-)), I can see how God uses tragedies as means to draw men to Himself. However, it is a different thing to blame God for the affliction (like cancer), car accident, tower collapse, or tornado. If God were controlling each and every event in this world like that, then our free will means nothing. We have NO dominion over this world -- because God is pulling all of the strings all of the time. Every time I go fishing, it is God who puts the fish on my hook. I know that God CAN do it...but, you know, I still use bait. I have only caught one fish without bait.

In addition, if someone would assume that God is controlling the strings for everything in this world (and that there is no systematic order to Creation), then one would assume that God is ultimately responsible for EVERY death on this planet. You wouldn't fear holding a lightning rod in your hand and standing in an open field during a storm -- because the laws and order of nature are imaginary. Someone insinuated that God caused the accident of David Wilkerson as a divine act of judgment. In other words, the insinuation is that God killed him in an act of judgment.

However, the greater insinuation behind such a notion is that God must have done the same to ALL people who have ever been killed in traffic accidents around the world. Our auto, home, health and business insurance must be insurance against acts of God instead of weather, bad drivers, or sicknesses that come from living in this world. A fisherman doesn't need skill for his trade, because God is the one who places all of the fish in the nets.

Now, I am keenly aware that God can fill nets with fish (and He has done it), but it is not the "norm." In John 21:1-11, the fisherman were having a difficult time catching fish (just like before...when Jesus called them in Luke 5:1-11). Then, God supernaturally worked on their behalf -- bypassing natural order -- and filled their nets with fish.

Moreover, one would assume that sickness must also be the judgment of God. Yet when Jesus walked the Earth, the Bible says, "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him" (Acts 10:38). This passage indicates that those who needed healing were OPPRESSED OF THE DEVIL -- and not God. Throughout Scripture, we read of people who were sick and that Jesus indicated that it was Satan who had afflicted them (such as in Luke 13:16).

You see, I believe that Job was afflicted by Satan. After all, when God gave Satan permission to afflict Job, the Lord said, "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD" (Job 1:12). Why did Satan need God's permission? Because God had protected Job by a "hedge" of protection. Why would God put up a "hedge" around Job if God's judgment was responsible for storms and other forms of affliction to begin with?

The entire gist of what I am saying -- and my motivation to risk the consternation and criticism of some here -- is to encourage caution. We should be very cautious before we go about assigning blame for tragedies on God. We should be extremely careful when we paint God's character under the New Covenant as being actively responsible for the killing of 125+ people -- men, women and children (at least one baby) and including believers and unbelievers.

I have been reading through the book of Job. The majority of that book is filled with the assumptions, insinuations and blame for God from Job's friends in regard to the tragedies that Job was experiencing (including a "mighty wind" that destroyed his house and killed his family in Job 1:18-19). They repeated some very familiar accusations against God -- and it wasn't until God confronted him that Job realized how inadequate He was to make or consider such accusations.

That is what I am encouraging. After God confronted Job about those assumptions and insinuations, Job repented. He said, "I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not" (Job 42:3). We just need to be careful about assigning blame to God for tragedies like this as "acts of judgment."


_________________
Christopher

 2011/5/27 11:53Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Chris said:

Quote:
This is why I have the concern that we might be meandering into the folly of Job's friends when we start assigning blame or a cause/effect relationship between this particular Joplin tornado (one of MANY on that day -- most of which did not kill anyone) and some motive by God to destroy the town and kill 125 or more of its people.



Standing upon one's faith and testifying of what one believes can not be considered meandering.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Everything that was made was made by Him. There is nothing that He can not do.

I believe he considers every believer and orders their path 24/7. Nothing happens by chance (or, as you believe, the natural order of nature) to a saint.

This tornado is only the beginning of what is to come. This is the Birth Pangs. It is you who are making light of this by passing it off as 'weather patterns.' You influence people to stay asleep with that talk. Your much learning has made you mad. Your comfortable life has allowed you to become insulated. Wake up, please, wake up. Go out into the streets and deal with flesh and blood people not ideas in books.

ws


_________________
Janice

 2011/5/27 11:56Profile
Lotis
Member



Joined: 2006/9/26
Posts: 84


 Re:

Quote:
You influence people to stay asleep with that talk. Your much learning has made you mad. Your comfortable life has allowed you to become insulated. Wake up, please, wake up. Go out into the streets and deal with flesh and blood people not ideas in books.



That is a mighty high horse you're riding White_Stone...


_________________
John

 2011/5/27 12:01Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

White_Stone,

Quote:

Standing upon one's faith and testifying of what one believes can not be considered meandering.



I imagine that Job's friends felt that they were standing upon their faith and testifying of what they believed when they made assumptions that God was judging Job and had poured out that judgment upon Job's family, home and livelihood. I suppose that the only thing worse than not taking a stand is taking the wrong stand.

Quote:

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Everything that was made was made by Him. There is nothing that He can not do.

I believe he considers every believer and orders their path 24/7. Nothing happens by chance (or, as you believe, the natural order of nature) to a saint.



I didn't say that things happen by "chance." "Order" is not "chance." God set this world in order. If you don't believe it, go stand on the shore and watch the high tide roll in. You can assume that it is supernatural each and every day (that it happens like clockwork) or you can understand that God caused it in the sense that He designed the order to this world when He created it.

And yes, we are in the hands of God.

Quote:

This tornado is only the beginning of what is to come. This is the Birth Pangs. It is you who are making light of this by passing it off as 'weather patterns.' You influence people to stay asleep with that talk. Your much learning has made you mad. Your comfortable life has allowed you to become insulated. Wake up, please, wake up. Go out into the streets and deal with flesh and blood people not ideas in books.



First of all, I am NOT "making light of this." It was a tragedy for which I have spent much time on my knees praying for the people in Joplin. And you cannot rightfully accuse me of influencing people to "stay asleep" with my words. I am urging CAUTION. You, and a few others, are making an accusation about God. That is a VERY serious thing! You had better be 100% correct -- because an account of such magnitude will be called (just as every word that I say or type will be called for an account). I am simply encouraging caution before we proclaim God as the killer of the people of Joplin in some divine act of judgment.

AS for my "comfortable" life -- you do not know me enough to make such a judgment. You don't know the things that I have endured in my life. You don't know the times that I suffered physical pain or hungered. You don't know the time where I have been punched in the face for sharing Christ with others. You don't know the times where my life was threatened. You don't know the times that I walked through drug-infested inner city projects in order to share Jesus with the lost. So, before you go about proclaiming my need to "wake up" from a "comfortable life," you probably need to know me a little better.

Two of my favorite hymns are Fanny Crosby's "Take This World But Give Me Jesus" and Rhea Miller's "I'd Rather Have Jesus."

Quote:

TAKE THIS WORLD BUT GIVE ME JESUS
by Fanny Crosby, 1872

Take the world, but give me Jesus,
All its joys are but a name;
But His love abideth ever,
Through eternal years the same.

Refrain

Oh, the height and depth of mercy!
Oh, the length and breadth of love!
Oh, the fullness of redemption,
Pledge of endless life above!

Take the world, but give me Jesus,
Sweetest comfort of my soul;
With my Savior watching o’er me,
I can sing though billows roll.

Refrain

Take the world, but give me Jesus,
Let me view His constant smile;
Then throughout my pilgrim journey
Light will cheer me all the while.

Refrain

Take the world, but give me Jesus.
In His cross my trust shall be,
Till, with clearer, brighter vision,
Face to face my Lord I see.

Refrain



Quote:

I'D RATHER HAVE JESUS
by Rhea Miller, 1932

I’d rather have Jesus than silver or gold;
I’d rather be His than have riches untold;
I’d rather have Jesus than houses or lands;
I’d rather be led by His nail-pierced hand

Refrain:

Than to be the king of a vast domain
And be held in sin’s dread sway;
I’d rather have Jesus than anything
This world affords today.

I’d rather have Jesus than men’s applause;
I’d rather be faithful to His dear cause;
I’d rather have Jesus than worldwide fame;
I’d rather be true to His holy name

He’s fairer than lilies of rarest bloom;
He’s sweeter than honey from out the comb;
He’s all that my hungering spirit needs;
I’d rather have Jesus and let Him lead




_________________
Christopher

 2011/5/27 12:15Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I would hope that we can tone this down a bit and ask that we try to focus on praying for the families of those that have been touched by this horrific tragedy. There are still families that have not been able to find their loved ones. Many of us are aware of the horror stories. Please remember to pray as well for the churches that were destroyed and their members homes. Our Indian Missions director of many decades, having built many churches on the reservations along with his wife lost near everything. Tremendous man of God. Please keep these and all the rest in prayer as they navigate this disaster.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2011/5/27 12:16Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Thank you, brother Robert.

I do hope that I haven't offended anyone for encouraging caution in this tragedy. At the same time, I agree that we should pray for the people of Joplin an the surrounding area. There are many hurting people right now.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/5/27 12:20Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 8 days and it all gets bulldozed to the dump

On another forum a man from Joplin posted that they have been told the residents have 8 days to dig out all they can salvage and then the machinery comes in to move it all to the dump. It seems kind of cold to have such a short time limit but I imagine it is for health reasons more than anything else.

Personally, I could not watch the pile of debris that used to be my home get bulldozed. I hope they have set up at least tent cities for all those people. They do need our prayers and support more now than ever.

ws


_________________
Janice

 2011/5/27 12:32Profile





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