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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi White_Stone,

Quote:

When these verses below (from The Revelation of Jesus Christ) are fulfilled are you still going to be claiming it was 'weather patterns?'



No, I wouldn't. You see, those things mentioned in the Revelation period of God's wrath will DEFY the natural order for which God assigned this world. The events surrounding weather, earthquakes, and even the stars will all defy all notions of "order."

Quote:

I never could understand, until I read your posts, how the people in those revelations would not repent, now I believe they will not even know it was God slaying them - they will be saying the same thing you are saying. You said it yourself, "This can be dangerous if what we proclaim is not founded upon the undeniable Truth of God's Word."



Now, that is quite specious. To be blunt, I am perplexed that some people are so convinced that God decided to supernaturally form a tornado with the purpose to KILL 125+ people in Joplin, Missouri as some sort of divine act of wrath (or murderous "mercy") -- that they would accuse those who disagree with such a notion (because we feel that it lacks Biblical merit) of either being a "Deist" or being prone to end-times deception to the point of lacking repentance. Those sort of insinuations lack merit.

As Brother Travis stated, those events of the Revelation WILL come to fruition. They ARE coming. However, this tornado was NOT one of those periods of wrath.

That time -- of God's wrath -- will be worse than any other time in history. However, the events of those day will not be the result of typical weather phenomenon. They will be the result of the wrath that God has stored up -- and will pour out upon the Earth. Entire portions of the Earth will be annihilated in an instance.

The unbelievers at that time who will not repent will likely fail to do so for the reasons stated in that same passage -- for the "worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

It is interesting that some people were saying the same sort of thing about Hurricane Katrina in 2005. When the next great storm or natural disaster takes place, they will probably repeat the same sort of "judgment" rhetoric. During college, I read some documents where some believers were saying the same thing during the 1830s when a couple of storms tore through the US and a major Leonid meteor shower took place. Abraham Lincoln was a young man at the time, and he later recalled that he was awakened by his landlord during the meteor shower and told that the "day of judgment" had come.

It isn't "scoffing" to urge caution about making such vast public proclamations. Rather, it is reminding individuals of the overwhelming importance of the situation. More importantly, it is perplexing that some people think that they are wise enough (spiritually) as to assign the blame or cause of a natural disaster as the divine work of retributive judgment from God. Like Philologos said in that article, it is akin to individuals connecting the closest possible dots. Thinking that it makes sense, they feel no hesitation about proclaiming it.

Quote:

God sent the tornado, not necessarily to punish those people as much as to punish this whole Country.



How certain are you of this, White Stone? Is there any doubt in your mind that this particular tornado was an act of judgment upon that town (or this nation)? Or, to the contrary, is there any chance that this tornado was the result of the order by which God designed weather when He created the world?

Now, before anyone accuses me of using the same serpentine rhetoric that Satan used with Eve, I want to make it clear that I am simply urging caution while promoting a I Thessalonians 5:21 type of test. You see, this is my greatest concern in all of this. I am concerned that we are pointing an extremely implicatory accusation at the very heart of God.

Job's friends were filled with assumptions about the reasons why Job was suffering like he was. They imparted their notions about the reasons why Job was suffering and, unfortunately, Job listened to them. It took a truly divine confrontation by God to reveal just how little Job and his friends actually understood regarding such things. Thankfully, Job repented of trying to ascertain cause of blame for all of his trials and tribulations. As a result, God restored Job...and the latter part of his life was better than the first. However, it only came after Job had come to the realization of his own folly and repented accordingly. Job repented saying, "Therefore have I uttered that I UNDERSTOOD NOT; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not" (Job 42:3).

One day, the wrath that God has stored up will be poured out. The great tribulation will be dispensed upon this fallen world. It will be unlike any time before it.

Until then, I would simply urge caution before trying to attribute each and every act as a judgment of God. If people attribute each and every car accident, storm, tornado, ship wreck, stomach flu, hurricane, disease, etc... -- as divine acts of judgment -- then people will be less prone to listen when REAL acts of judgment befall.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/5/26 22:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:
No, I wouldn't. You see, those things mentioned in the Revelation period of God's wrath will DEFY the natural order for which God assigned this world. The events surrounding weather, earthquakes, and even the stars will all defy all notions of "order."



Since we are seeing the birthpains of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, at exactly what point does God take control to supercede the natural order? Where is the handoff from natural order back to God?

I am assuming you give thanks for your meals, do you give thanks to the natural order God established or do you give thanks to God?

Quote:
then people will be less prone to listen when REAL acts of judgment befall.



You are already doing this. So does it matter that you are doing it earlier rather than later?

BTW, please give me chapter and verse where your belief that God established a natural order and then sits back to let it do its own thing, come from.

ETA
Ezek 13:11 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.


OJ

 2011/5/27 8:39









 Re:

Ps 107:23-31

23 They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;

24 These see the works of the Lord, and his wonders in the deep.

25 For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.

26 They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.

27 They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wits' end.

28 Then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.

29 He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.

30 Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.

31 Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!



Jonah 1:4 But the Lord sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.

Ex 9:18 Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now.

Ps 105:32-36

32 He gave them hail for rain, and flaming fire in their land.

33 He smote their vines also and their fig trees; and brake the trees of their coasts.

34 He spake, and the locusts came, and caterpillers, and that without number,

35 And did eat up all the herbs in their land, and devoured the fruit of their ground.

36 He smote also all the firstborn in their land, the chief of all their strength.
KJV


Hag 2:17 I smote you with blasting and with mildew and with hail in all the labours of your hands; yet ye turned not to me, saith the Lord.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.


It certainly wasn't laws of nature that did these things.....

OJ

 2011/5/27 8:56
Lotis
Member



Joined: 2006/9/26
Posts: 84


 Re:

No one claimed God doesn't interrupt the natural order of things to create super-natural situations which in some cases means judgment. He also interrupts the natural order of things to do acts of mercy and kindness, such as healing someone who by all rights should be dead or saving a soul that by all rights was corrupted by sin and deserving of said judgment.

Can I ask an honest question, why were the people of Joplin judged and not the people in Washington DC? Why were 125+ families (probably your average middle class people...I don't know) who were simply trying to live their lives, judged and killed because of what a man in a suit decided thousands of miles away? God must have just been so enraged that he just threw these tornadoes down with reckless abandon like zeus on his cloudy throne, hitting what they may hit and killing who they may kill.

Hebrews 1 tells us exactly how God the father is, and that he was perfectly expressed in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ (last time I checked) took the judgement of the world upon himself, and thanks to him we are now in an era of mercy and rest, does that mean there won't be a day of judgement? No, of course that is coming and coming soon as I see it (but who knows, it's been coming soon for a few thousand years). We're under a different covenant now folks, but you would be hard pressed to see that in this thread...


_________________
John

 2011/5/27 9:18Profile









 Re:

It is very interesting to see how this thread has developed, who knew? It is facinating to see where different Christians come down on this issue, it truly speaks into their hearts I believe.

"They ARE coming. However, this tornado was NOT one of those periods of wrath."

Thats a very bold statement, its as bold as saying that it was God, all the bolder because of the capital letters of the " NOT." It is strange to refute one emphatic statement with another, but it does bring clarity and men should be fully convinced of what they believe.

Back in the late 1800s, at the hieght of the " Higher citics," ( men who believed in the Bible but not in any supernatural acts) there was a discovery on the Jordon river. It was discovered that at some point in the past, determined to be roughly in the time frame of the Exodus, there had been a massive landslide up river of where it was supposed that the Israelites had crossed. It was an " Ah Ha," moment for the higher critics, they said something along the lines of " You see, we have our explanation, it was not supernatural but simply a random act of nature."

Now consider that for a second. What the higher critics were saying, and in their blindness missing, was the fact that the second the Priests put their feet in the Jordon, in accordance to Gods command, so many minutes before a massive landslide occured miles upstream and at the precise second the Priest stepped in, the river dried up.

Another thing to consider. Scientists are now explaining how the brain works to a certain extent. They say things like anger or lust are simply " chemical reactions," in the brain. I am certain that they are correct, that when a man is angry or murderous or cheating on his wife, that some kind of chemical reaction is going off in his brain. Does that mean that he is not controlling his actions? Is there not a spirit and a soul behind the mans actions, choosing or not choosing what to do? If scientists tell us that a man is simply the victim of his chemical make-up and a product of his enviroment, does that negate what the Bible says about sin and accountabilty?

Let me say something about scientists and the scientific mind, they are grass-hoppers in comparison to our Almighty God. The wisest man in the world is as a fool to our God. The world will continue to get smarter, knowledge will certainly increase, naturaL explanations will be given for everything, yet the Word of God will stand unmoved.

As for the Tornado that hit Joplin, one hopes that every resident of Joplin would lift their eyes to an Almighty God in the midst of the devastaion and fall down on their faces. My heart breaks for those people. The stories have left me in tears multiple times. Their loss is epic and hard to contemplate. Christians from all over are heading to and are already there to bring comfort to those in need, as it should be. For we are the light that penetrates the darkness of this world.

One final word. I am reminded of the heart of Abraham as he interceded for Sodom ( I am not saying Joplin is Sodom, just using it as an example of the heart of a Godly man) Abraham, knowing how wicked Sodom was, interceded on behalf of that city. Even in the midst of judgement, we must always have the heart of Abraham, it is for us to intercede and for God to act. We interce out of love, we warn out of love, this is the heart of God and we see it in Moses as well as he interceded on behalf of the children of Isreal as God was about to destroy them. Interestingly enough, all of the children of Israel fell in the desert, bar two. One and a half million perished in the wilderness because of unbelief and disobedience. Love came from the heart of Moses, God showed by His patience His love, but ultimately he exercised his justice. Just like the cross of Calvary where we see the perfect almagm of Love and justice...........brother Frank

 2011/5/27 9:41
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Quote:
white stone said: God sent the tornado, not necessarily to punish those people as much as to punish this whole Country.

chris replied: How certain are you of this, White Stone? Is there any doubt in your mind that this particular tornado was an act of judgment upon that town (or this nation)? Or, to the contrary, is there any chance that this tornado was the result of the order by which God designed weather when He created the world?



Chris, I am 100% certain the tornado was an act of God, NOT a random act of so-called nature.

When you say the acts which are foretold in The Revelation of Jesus Christ, you say they will be beyond the 'natural order.' It appears to me as if God is conditioning the ungodly to accept bigger and bigger 'natural' disasters. There is little doubt in my mind that they will eventually accept a meteor strike that will wipe out a whole continent and still not give God Almighty credit or reverence - they will not repent.

I can see this Country marred by tornadoes and other disasters to the point it will appear as the background for the movie 'Mad Max' and people will still not repent. And as long as most of them still have their creature comforts they will not consider their ways. Perhaps it is a mercy of God to remove the creature comforts and bring the people to where they HAVE to lean on Him. If you think of that it is possible to view the tornado in Joplin and the others, as well, as a great blessing.

Quote:
Until then, I would simply urge caution before trying to attribute each and every act as a judgment of God. If people attribute each and every car accident, storm, tornado, ship wreck, stomach flu, hurricane, disease, etc... -- as divine acts of judgment -- then people will be less prone to listen when REAL acts of judgment befall.



Chris, Chris, Chris, don't you see, to the one who these acts fall upon it is just that, an act of Judgment. Being in a life threatening car accident and being incapacitated for a long time gives a soul the opportunity to reflect on their life and their relationship with God. It is too easy to not reflect when there is a constant supply of food and comfort and entertainments. I do not pray for any accident to befall those for whom I pray but I pray God's will be done.

His perfect will is being carried out as I type, Praise Jesus.

white stone


_________________
Janice

 2011/5/27 10:11Profile
Lotis
Member



Joined: 2006/9/26
Posts: 84


 Re:



Lets all pray that everyone gets in a terrible accident so they can reflect properly on their need for a savior? This is a sickening thought... We can't very well pray for the people of Joplin if it's God's judgment, and we certainly shouldn't send them aid, otherwise we would certainly be working against God and in danger of Judgment ourselves!


_________________
John

 2011/5/27 10:23Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 do you read the whole post?

That is NOT what I said. You twisted my words?

Be careful, I'm praying for you.

ws


_________________
Janice

 2011/5/27 10:42Profile
Lotis
Member



Joined: 2006/9/26
Posts: 84


 Re: do you read the whole post?

*removed*


_________________
John

 2011/5/27 10:45Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi Frank,

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote: "They ARE coming. However, this tornado was NOT one of those periods of wrath."

appolus wrote: Thats a very bold statement, its as bold as saying that it was God, all the bolder because of the capital letters of the " NOT." It is strange to refute one emphatic statement with another, but it does bring clarity and men should be fully convinced of what they believe.



"those periods of wrath"

I was speaking of the bowels and trumpets of judgment mentioned in Revelation. This tornado was NOT one of those periods of God's wrath. I can say that boldly and firmly because the Book of Revelation is quite detailed regarding the events -- and events prior just haven't happened yet.

So, yes, it was a bold statement -- because it was NOT based upon an assumption. Moreover, I didn't make a claim about God killing people in Joplin, Missouri (just like I didn't make an assumption about God killing people in New Orleans/Mississippi during Hurricane Katrina). Now, I will be the first to pray that God will use any disaster to draw men unto Himself. However, it is a different thing to claim that God decided to supernaturally form a tornado and KILL, STEAL and DESTROY the people of Joplin.

This is why I have the concern that we might be meandering into the folly of Job's friends when we start assigning blame or a cause/effect relationship between this particular Joplin tornado (one of MANY on that day -- most of which did not kill anyone) and some motive by God to destroy the town and kill 125 or more of its people.

I hope that makes my comment a bit more clear.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/5/27 10:55Profile





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