SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Joplin , MO, takes a big hit by a tornado

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 Next Page )
PosterThread
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Old Joe,

Quote:

Your beliefs are simply Deism.



That is simply untrue. In fact, I would very much like for you to retract your statement. This sort of definitive statement when you are not (or cannot be) absolutely certain is just not what God has called us to.

It is ridiculous to imply that because I do not believe that God purposely and intentionally killed all of those people as an act of judgment -- and urged caution in claiming as much -- that you would equate that with "Deism."

The truth of God's Word is undeniably truth. However, your own interpretation about such things -- including that accusation that God poured out judgment upon Joslin, Missouri (apart from weather patterns that He set in motion at the beginning of the world) -- is merely an ASSUMPTION. From what I read in Job, this is what Job's friends did. They made ASSUMPTIONS to Job -- and he listened. God put an end to that nonsense when He questioned Job from the whirlwind...and made it clear to Job that his counsel had been darkened by the contemplative assumptions of his friends (Job 38:1-2).

You do not KNOW for a certain that God superseded the order of natural weather that He designed and supernaturally created this tornado as an act of judgment (to kill and destroy as either an act of wrath or "mercy"). If you say that you are 100% sure -- then I really don't know what to tell you.

It reminds me of those people who claim that we do not have "free will." God certainly guides are steps (especially of believers), but God has left up some things to us in this world that He created in six days. Some choose to partake in the pleasures of this world -- to do things that satisfy the lusts of their own sinful nature. This, of course, is sin.

God oversees all things. In addition, he intervenes on behalf of men who ask -- even though He knows what we need before we ask. If you are sick, you go to the elders of the Church. If you are hungry, you eat. If you need money, you work. Yes, God can (and sometimes does) provide the brook and send the ravens to feed us. At other times, the brook dries up. We then work for what we eat.

Quote:

Be careful if you want, but I have infinite authority right here.

Isa 45:77 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?



How do you connect the dots between these verses and a public proclamation that God ignored the weather order that He designed at Creation in order to form a tornado and KILL the people of Joplin (*and destroy 75% of the town) as an act of judgment?

This can be dangerous if what we proclaim is not founded upon the undeniable Truth of God's Word. I imagine that people like Harold Camping and others -- who proclaim dates for specific judgment -- feel that they also have "infinite authority." It is easy to prove them wrong when the dates come and go. But, such false-prophets continue to make additional claims and fully believe that people will embrace what they say.

Still, I see no true examples from the Word of God to support a claim that God supernaturally pours out death and destruction upon His own people. This is especially true for the New Covenant under which we live. On the other hand, God has historically withheld His judgment upon believers -- even saying that He would have saved Sodom and Gomorrah if just ten righteous had been found there.

Moreover, your Wikipedia definition of "Deism" is a bit far reaching. There are many believers who are NOT "deists" who believe that God set the world in motion at Creation (designing the order pertaining to it) and directly intervenes on behalf of mankind. That is the very basis of PRAYER. Such intervention is the reason that we are prompted to "ask, seek and knock" (Matthew 7:7-8). As I have stated repeatedly in my posts, God constantly intervenes in this world. That intervention was demonstrated to me personally when I heard a knock at my door just before a tornado hit my home. I have had many other instances of God's intervention -- so it isn't even a concept in dispute.

The question in regard to your posts is whether you are saying that God actively controls all things at all times and never set an order to the world that He created. If this was so true -- then how do you explain the laws of gravity, the length of a day, etc...? Why did Jesus tell people that men can see a red sky and predict the weather if there was no order to it? Why is it that gravity works 100% of the time? That "order" that God created is observed on a daily basis! The understanding of that order -- and those laws -- is how the very computer that you are using was designed!

There have been individuals who grew very fat because they proclaimed God as controlling their weight! While I have no doubt that God can supernaturally intervene and make a person thin and healthy, the principles of biology that God set in order shows that a person who chronically eats too many cookies and does not exercise will gain weight. If I run, I am not demonstrating a "lack of faith" that God will supernaturally keep me healthy. It is simply that I understand that it profits me to burn off fat and work my joints.

Yesterday, a man expecting Harold Camping's "rapture" died. Why? He thought that he could either swim or walk across the water of a lake -- even though he couldn't swim. So, he tried to do it TWICE. The man came from Florida to Northern California for the "rapture," but he wasn't aware that the water temperature here is quite cold. So, he tried...twice...and died. His actions caused his own death.

http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_18140764

I am not saying this in order to condescendingly "prove" a point -- but I simply would like to point out that the order for which God created the world is observed all around us. In fact, God gave us dominion over this world after He created it (Psalm 8).

This order for which God created the world (and the universe) is how we can make determinations about many physical things. It is how the weathermen are able to tell us what type of weather we will have today or tomorrow with striking accuracy. It is the understanding that allows a farmer to plant a seed, water it, and see a harvest. Yes, God is ultimately responsible for it all -- and the world would fall apart without His guidance. However, the Sun will rise tomorrow because God designed it that way when He created the world (and set it on a 24 hour rotation).

Understanding that the world was set in motion at Creation is not a sign of Deism -- but a realization that God is the Creator who intrinsically designed the universe. If we need additional intervention, we specifically ask God through prayer. Otherwise, we have not because we ask not -- or that men ask selfishly according to their own lusts (James 4:3).

Quote:

You sound like you have a problem with believers dying.

Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.



On the contrary, brother. As I said before, I am keenly aware that "TO DIE IS GAIN" (Philippian 1:21). I am not afraid to die. My life is in the hand of God and He knows the number of my days. However, I also understand that "TO LIVE IS CHRIST." There is much work to be done here. The harvest is truly plentiful and the workers are so very few. Still, I just can't agree with a premise that God actively and supernaturally kills His own people -- either as an act of wrath or "mercy."

Somewhere, there will probably be some tornadoes today. I don't know whether those tornadoes will hit urban or rural areas. This summer, there will almost certainly be some hurricanes and tropical storms. The hurricane center is predicting quite a few. However, they aren't predicting them because they are "prophets." They are predicting them because there are hurricanes EVERY year...and they know that we are exiting what has been OBSERVED as a La Nina weather pattern. Each hurricane will likely spawn some tornadoes (or waterspouts). Someone might even die as a result of one of those tornadoes or hurricanes.

I just don't know if it is profitable to point the finger for each and every tragedy as an act of God.

This is what Job's friends did when they "darkened counsel with words without knowledge" (Job 38:1-2). They made assumptions where they pointed the finger at both God and Job as the causes and reasons behind his recent tragedies. Some of the things that Job's friends implied in their "words without knowledge" sound awfully familiar to what some have implied in regard to the tornado in Joplin. This is why I do want to urge caution.

Brother, I pray that I have not offended you with my words. That is not my motive or the purpose for which I responded to this thread. I just feel the weight of knowing that many people are reading what we write here on SermonIndex. Over the years, I have invited many people to this website. Every once in a while, someone will call me or email me and let me know that they had read something that I wrote. I never knew that some of those people ever visited the website. They don't sign up and post on the forums. However, they do read it. I can't help but wonder how many non-Christians visit this forum and read what we write. I know that we will all give an account to God for what we have written.

Again, I pray that you don't take offense to what I write. My prayer is that God will lead all of us to Truth in such matters and that we will continue to surrender ourselves to Him.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/5/26 12:17Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi RobertW (and Philologos),

Quote:

Speaking of Philologos (Ron Bailey), he had written a very balanced tractate on this subject in the sermonindex forums. It is copied here:

http://biblebasesecondthoughts.blogspot.com/2010/01/tsunamis-earthquakes-genocide-and-love.html


Thanks for the article!

Quote:

"The words of Jesus in Luke’s gospel are an abiding warning against an understanding based on joining up the dots by the shortest possible route. The Luke 13 passage is instructive because it deals with both human culpability and natural disaster. In the first Pilate might have been blamed, in the second an earth tremor, but in both cases the Lord refuses to connect the disaster event with individual or group sin. This is important when we consider the 1986 Chernobyl Meltdown, the 2004 Tsunami or the 9/11 WTC implications. I will ask and answer my own question… “Do you suppose that the residents of Belorus and Ukraine, the Indian ocean seacoasts or the Haiti… were sinners above all… that they suffered such things?” “No, I don’t”. This may surprise and unsettle some of my friends but I am sure that these words in Luke are to prevent us making such connections. It is impossible to deduce cause from effect just by joining up the dots.

Such a deduction would need revelation as well as information. Some will claim such revelation and quickly defend their opinions, but I have no such revelation and in the absence of plain New Testament teaching cannot submit to these conclusions."



I feel that this is true and very well put.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/5/26 12:21Profile









 Re:

And then, there are always man-made disasters.

HAARP comes to mind and makes me a bit suspicious, regarding these hundreds of unprecedented tornadoes and what has happened in Japan.

A777

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/pandora/haarp.html



 2011/5/26 13:54









 Re:

Rev 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;

and shouldest destroy them which are destroy[ing] the earth." [Grk]


When it comes to technology of that nature and others - most folks don't care to hear that Russia has us beat in that dept and being joint comrades with China [Rev 16:12] could be a threat to Japan and whomever else. The Revelation can only give symbolism to describe how these mentioned in the verse above are "destroying the earth".
Some folks don't see Russia [or China] having any major role in these last days scenarios, but even after the millenial reign - there they are again in Rev 20:8.

GOD knows who are "destroying the earth" and judgment is when He takes His Hand off of the world and let's satanically controled humans take over - until He Returns.

But many have very different views on eschatology, but I for one cannot cross-out Rev 11:18 and research on technological possibilities of how these will accomplish this near total destruction of the earth and it's inhabitants - that unless those days be shortened, no flesh would survive.

 2011/5/26 14:20









 Re:

Quote:
If you say that you are 100% sure -- then I really don't know what to tell you.



I am 100% sure.

OJ

 2011/5/26 20:34
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Chris,

You said

Quote:
You do not KNOW for a certain that God superseded the order of natural weather that He designed and supernaturally created this tornado as an act of judgment (to kill and destroy as either an act of wrath or "mercy"). . .



When these verses below (from The Revelation of Jesus Christ) are fulfilled are you still going to be claiming it was 'weather patterns?' I never could understand, until I read your posts, how the people in those revelations would not repent, now I believe they will not even know it was God slaying them - they will be saying the same thing you are saying. You said it yourself
Quote:
This can be dangerous if what we proclaim is not founded upon the undeniable Truth of God's Word.



Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.



Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

God sent the tornado, not necessarily to punish those people as much as to punish this whole Country. I believe it will get much worse than this and still people will not repent.

white stone


_________________
Janice

 2011/5/26 21:42Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2010
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
@ twayneb: what about the lad born blind in John 9, wasn'it for a specific purpose, namely the Glory of God??



looserchapel: I would encourage you to read and study that account very carefully. Although I am not a Greek scholar by any means, I believe the CEV probably translates it best. (CEV) "No, it wasn't!" Jesus answered. "But because of his blindness, you will see God work a miracle for him.

To interpret this scripture to say "God made him blind for a purpose" is to set this verse in opposition to the massive weight of NT scripture that clearly indicates that sickness and disease are the enemy of God and that Christ came to heal.

I can only find examples under the covenant of grace of God using or allowing sickness as a punishment that is condemnatory. Interestingly I never find a single case where it is redemptive. The only case that is used somewhat convincingly is 1 Cor. 11 and if you use Hebrews 10 as commentary and read it carefully you will find it applies only to the specific case of counting the blood and body of Christ as a common or unholy thing in communion.


_________________
Travis

 2011/5/26 21:43Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2010
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I read every word of your excellent post, and was astonished by this one paragraph.



Alive to God: I believe if we are to make the statement that this was God's judgment on Joplin then we should allow God's judgment to have full effect. If you believe it is God's judgment then you must believe that there are no innocent victims.

Now in saying that we must agree on our definition of judgment. I believe judgement to be a just punishment for sin. In that case we should allow people to bear their punishment and to try to alleviate it would be to stand in the way of God's justice. I personally would not want to be guilty of that. Remember that in the Revelation John sees the people looking on at the judgement of God and agreeing that it is just and that the people being judged are being judged rightly.

If you say God's judgement is sent for the sake of driving people to repentance then I guess we would want to help out all we could. The only problem is that I find absolutely NO New Covenant evidence for this point of view so I do not apply this definition to the term judgement.

By the way, I have been out working tonight in the damaged area and I am amazed at what I see. Cars driving up and down the streets offering every imaginable type of food and water to the people working so hard to clean up and salvage what they have left. Pray for Joplin.


_________________
Travis

 2011/5/26 21:49Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2010
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
When these verses below (from The Revelation of Jesus Christ) are fulfilled are you still going to be claiming it was 'weather patterns?' I never could understand, until I read your posts, how the people in those revelations would not repent, now I believe they will not even know it was God slaying them - they will be saying the same thing you are saying. You said it yourself



White Stone et. al.: There is coming a day of the release of the judgement of God on this earth. I believe it is coming very soon and the increase in natural disasters are the creation groaning and travailing, waiting and longing for the day of the Lord. When these judgements come there will be no doubt and I believe there will be no other chance. We do need to warn people of this coming judgement and beg them to repent before that great and dreadful day. In light of this I don't believe what we see now is yet that day. But it is coming!!!


_________________
Travis

 2011/5/26 21:55Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3616
Louisiana

 Re:

Our hearts go out to those who lost thier lives and their homes in Joplin Missouri. There were innocent people that lost their lives, and there were many Christians that were protected. Many of the testimonies were on the national news. I do not believe that this was judgement against Joplin Misouri, but judgement against our nation.

Brothers and sisters, we need to watch and pray. These tornadoes are only the tip of the iceburg to what is coming. No one will be able to explain it off to natural weather phenomonem.

May the Lord raise up many intercessors that will stand in the gap, repent for our own sins and the sins of our nation, and cry out for mercy.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2011/5/26 22:22Profile





©2002-2021 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy