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Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3170


Well, for whatever it is worth, a couple of days before the tornado hit Joplin, the LORD had me take note of where twayneb lived and what his real name was. There is no reason that I can think of as to why I would do this. When I read Joplin, MO I thought "well that is good to know, in case there is a tornado or something."

On Sunday I was busy all day because I had guests coming so I was unaware of any storms brewing. It was just before 6:00 pm when I checked my computer and noticed storms around Joplin. My guests arrived just as I saw the report that there was a tornado spotted in the Joplin area so I prayed for Travis and shut down my computer.

It was about 10:00 pm before I was able to check my computer again and I was astounded that a tornado had gone through Joplin. That is why I was so concerned that Travis be found - the LORD had put him on my watch and I was concerned that I had not done everything that I should have - that I had put my needs first and not covered him in prayer as much as I should have.

Praise God Travis was spared. My prayer now is that the LORD will use him as a living testimony and many will be brought into the Kingdom as a result.

It is very clear that judgment has come upon America - just as she deserves. It has only just begun. The only question that remains is, will she repent?

 2011/5/26 1:19Profile


*UPDATE* God allows tribulation in His children's lives for many reasons. And always 1) for their good, 2)to win the lost, and 3) always for His glory.

Speaking of Job: It was not God who poured out judgment or wrath upon Job.

Job was afflicted with tribulation not wrath. God was not angry at Job. We see this from God's very own statements about Job.

The righteous are not appointed to wrath.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Job experienced tribulation.

We are promised tribulation not wrath.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

Speaking of Job: It was not God who poured out judgment or wrath upon Job. Satan asked for permission to afflict him. God said, "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand" (Job 1:12) -and- "Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6). The next verse says, "So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown" (Job 2:7).

When God said, "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand", He basically gave permission and power to Satan to afflict Job with tribulation not wrath. Of course to Job it felt like wrath, until you read the end of Job and Job realizes that it was never wrath from God.

God's wrath is saved up for the hypocrites.

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Since there were Believers in Joplin (we assume, only God knows the heart), and Unbelievers, is it not possible that the same storm was tribulation to Believers and Wrath on Unbelievers? Just wondering. God does not pour out wrath on the righteous.


 2011/5/26 1:31

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


Hi Joe,


"...God purposely killed those believers..."

"Yes He did..."

This is quite a statement. I just think that we need to be extremely careful about proclaiming such an assumption with infinite authority.


This is what YOU keep adding. But what I keep telling you is that sometimes death is an act of wrath and other times it is an act of mercy. Some in that tornado will have been dealt with in wrath and others in mercy. Some outside that tornado will have been dealt with in wrath and others in mercy as well.

I previously asked about whether or not the word "judgment" was using the connotation of "wrath." Whether or not some believe that ALL of the deaths in this specific tornado were the result of "wrath" or "mercy," the point is that some have implied that this was God's judgment upon the people of this small town in the sense that, as you agreed, God killed these people.

I have never seen an anecdote in Scripture where God killed His people -- even out of "mercy." In fact, the Scriptures are clear that it is Satan who comes to kill, steal and destroy. To the contrary, Jesus healed ALL who were sick and oppressed of the devil.

By what I have read, it seems like individuals think that there is no set "order" to nature -- including weather, gravity, physics, biology, etc... I have met people who think that God is PRESENTLY determining every single drop of rain, thunderstorm, snowflake, etc... For them, when a blizzard, heat wave or hurricane happens, it must have some underlying spiritual meaning to it (more than the obvious "order" by which God designed the world).

Today, a tornado occurred in a rural area of northern California. It didn't strike any homes or farms. It didn't strike any farm animals. No property was reported to be damaged. It mostly occurred on some dirt. I wonder where some would suggest the underlying spiritual blame for it lay? Why did a tornado hit a rural area in northern California affecting, well, almost nothing -- but a tornado hits a small midwestern town and destroys 75% of it and kills more than 120?

Of course, this isn't something that I would even want to ponder -- because I don't want to find myself in the same boat as Job's friends. They were trying to suggest the causes or assign blame for Job's predicament. In the end, they only succeeded in "darkened counsel by words without knowledge" (Job 38:1-2). The Lord rebuked Job...illustrated to Job his lack of wisdom by asking a series of questions...and then Job repented of trying to second guess the motives and rationale of God. I just don't want any of us to fall into the same vice as Job's friends (or Job himself).


I would rather live in a tornado sent by God (and I do) than wander through a life subject to the chance and whim of nature or some other such thing.

No one is saying that we "wander" through a life subject to the chance or whim of nature. I have stated repeatedly that nature is simply the ORDER by which God assigned this world. If you jump out the window, you WILL fall to the ground by the order of gravity (which God designed). If you place your hand on the stove, it WILL be burned because of the order of biology and physics (which God designed). If you place water in the freezer, it WILL freeze because of the chemical order that God designed. This isn't "chance" -- it is design. It is cause and effect. When a cold air mass collides with a warm air mass, tornadoes happen. Why? God designed the world that way.

Now, God can certainly supernaturally bypass any of those laws of order (nature) that He designed for this world. After all, Jesus walked on water. But like someone here at SermonIndex pointed out, most of the time, Jesus took a boat.

I don't think that anyone would suggest that we wander aimlessly through this world. After all, the steps of the righteous are ORDERED of God. However, sometimes those steps are prompted supernaturally (like when I heard a knock on my door as I lay in bed just before a tornado struck my house). At other times, we simply walk and trust that God is leading us.

I do hope that I am not sounding contentious with your opinion for the purpose of being contentious. I just want to urge caution when it comes to publicly proclaiming a tornado as a divine act of judgment to kill off 124 or more people (men, women, children, believers and unbelievers). Yes, God saw it all unfolding. God could have stepped in (and, perhaps, DID step in for some). However, just about a week ago, our local weatherman said that a front that caused very cool air here in California was going to head east and might cause some violent storms and tornadic activity.

This radio weatherman was no "prophet" -- at least not any more than how Jesus mentioned that men can predict the weather by looking at the color of the sky. The weatherman simply understood natural weather phenomenon -- which is simply done by studying the physical order that God designed for this world.

Now, I believe that God can use all circumstances -- good and bad -- for His good purpose. After all, ALL things work for the good of those who are in Christ Jesus. We are promised tribulation in this world...and we should cheerfully expect it (and even be prepared for it) because Christ overcame the world. The people of Joplin experienced tragedy and tribulation of epic proportion...and it is my earnest prayer that some good will come out of it for God's glory.


 2011/5/26 1:45Profile

Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3170


Another thing God's Word makes clear is that when He sends discipline, the fundamental purpose is never to punish. Let me emphasize it, when God sends discipline as remedial judgments, His fundamental purpose is never to punish. His fundamental purpose is to call us to repentance so that we might be saved. Here is the way Isaiah puts it in Isaiah 26:9, "When the earth experiences your judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness."

Yes, this is right.

 2011/5/26 1:53Profile

Joined: 2011/2/23
Posts: 58
Brest, France


Here is an example of what I am talking about. Lets use the example of child-birth. Some would say that in His sovereignty God causes or allows (I won't get into the nuances of these terms. People have argued incessantly about it and I am not interested in that.) babies to be born with birth defects for some purpose known only to Himself. This is a good example because it has SO much emotion attached, and we often lose sight of scripture or interpret it wrongly when we are overwhelmed by emotion. We cannot say clearly from scripture that God does this. The closest we can come is perhaps Job's comments in Job 31, but if we read in context we find that God was not inspiring Job to say those things, so we have only Job's opinion. The next might be David in Psalm 139 about God knowing us before we were born. But this scripture does not say that God intends for some to be born with defects.

@ twayneb: what about the lad born blind in John 9, wasn'it for a specific purpose, namely the Glory of God??


 2011/5/26 4:38Profile

 Re: Joplin , MO, takes a big hit by a tornado

Hi Travis,

Greetings, and blessings. May the Lord give you grace, strength, and, a new revelation of His loving ways in the coming days.

I read every word of your excellent post, and was astonished by this one paragraph.

I guess all that was to say that I do not believe at all that this was a judgment on Joplin. You know, if I really believed that I would neither lift a finger to help those people nor would I pray for them. It would be insanity on my part to stand in opposition to the judgment of God. The most I might do is pray that God suspend His judgment and hope He would forgive me for praying such a thing.

'if I really believed that I would neither lift a finger to help those people nor would I pray for them.'

Once the tornado is passed, and there are survivors, and people with losses, and people to nurse, or bury, why not help? Why not pray? I don't get the connections you are making. God, who is able to take a person's life at will, as we saw when the angel of death passed through Egypt, has had His moment.

I was greatly impressed as a teen by the testimony of a man whom God had brought to within a hair's breadth of death twice, but who still refused to repent. The third time, after a car accident which should have been fatal left him hanging precariously in a tree, the man conceded defeat, turned himself over to God, and entered His full time service.

To Chris,

"...God purposely killed those believers..."

"Yes He did..."


This is quite a statement. I just think that we need to be extremely careful about proclaiming such an assumption with infinite authority.

How do you know it's an 'assumption'?

Here is an extract from the last page of 'Did Moses see God?' in which philologos wrote:

'I am not sure that the 120 years is applicable to all men from that time, but I think the strong impression from the last glimpse we have of Moses is that he was very vigorous.
“And Moses [is] a son of a hundred and twenty years when he dieth; his eye hath not become dim, nor hath his moisture fled.” (Deut. 34:7, YNG) The word translated
'moisture' here is linked to a word meaning fresh or undried; Gen. 30:37; Num. 6:3; Deut. 34:7; Judg. 16:7-8; Ezek. 17:24; 20:47

I don't know whether it is being used figuratively or literally of Moses, but the impression is of virility and life rather than an old man ready to lie down for his last sleep. We need to remember too that the 'exodus' generation were the recipients of some extraordinary blessings;Deut. 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

Psa. 105:37 He brought them forth also with silver and gold: and there was not one feeble person among their tribes. It might appear from this that all the hundreds of thousands who died in the wilderness did not die of
'natural causes' but as a result of God's timed executions?'

The phrase 'infinite authority', could, more legitimately, be applied to God. The fact is, God's word strongly supports that God kills people. Do you believe that?

 2011/5/26 7:58

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7504


I have so many Christian friends who were spared in pretty miraculous ways. One of them was in the cooler at the Dillon's grocery. I know CNN interviewed some about that particular incident. Others were not at home. Others were trapped for a time in the ONLY spot in the rubble where one could have survived. One was in a car and was hit dead center. She was only bruised but her car was totally destroyed. God does protect us when we walk with Him.

I believe it. To the one who experiences it it is a sacred memory.

In Nov. 2010 a tornado hit east of our town, totally destroying a mobile home - I mean it was not even there anymore! But it occupants survived with some scratches!

When things go well we take God for granted. But when things go bad and we experience divine intervention on our behalf, if just does something to the survivor. And God gets all the honor and glory!

Sandra Miller

 2011/5/26 8:21Profile


This is quite a statement. I just think that we need to be extremely careful about proclaiming such an assumption with infinite authority.

Be careful if you want, but I have infinite authority right here.

Isa 45:77 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

I have never seen an anecdote in Scripture where God killed His people -- even out of "mercy."

How about King Josiah?

Refer to 2 Chron 34:27-28 first
Then read
2 Chron 35:23-24

Parallel in 2 Kings 22

How about 1 Cor 11:30?

You sound like you have a problem with believers dying.

Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.


 2011/5/26 8:38



Your beliefs are simply Deism.

Deism today

Contemporary deism attempts to integrate classical deism with modern philosophy and the current state of scientific knowledge. This attempt has produced a wide variety of personal beliefs under the broad classification/category of belief of "deism". The Modern Deism web site includes one list of the unofficial tenets of modern deism.[56]

Classical deism held that a human's relationship with God was impersonal: God created the world and set it in motion but does not actively intervene in individual human affairs but rather through Divine Providence. What this means is that God will give humanity such things as reason and compassion but this applies to all and not individual intervention.

Some modern deists have modified this classical view and believe that humanity's relationship with God is transpersonal which means that God transcends the personal/impersonal duality and moves beyond such human terms. Also, this means that it makes no sense to state that God intervenes or does not intervene as that is a human characteristic which God does not contain. Modern deists believe that they must continue what the classical deists started and continue to use modern human knowledge to come to understand God which in turn is why a human-like God that can lead to numerous contradictions and inconsistencies is no longer believed in and has been replaced with a much more abstract conception.

From here

Note this quote summarizes what you have already said.

"God created the world and set it in motion but does not actively intervene in individual human affairs but rather through Divine Providence."


 2011/5/26 8:48

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Here is an extract from the last page of 'Did Moses see God?' in which philologos wrote:

Speaking of Philologos (Ron Bailey), he had written a very balanced tractate on this subject in the sermonindex forums. It is copied here:

Robert Wurtz II

 2011/5/26 9:25Profile

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