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 Re:

And Satan knows it all too well. God is still in control.

Even when we are surrounded by God's hedge of protection.

Satan talking to God:
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Satan speaking and demanding that God move against Job.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

And what or who does God use to execute His will for destruction?

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

God thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways higher than ours and anything God allows upon His servants (think Job, think Jesus, think Wurmbrand and many other Saints) is always towards a view to some kind of redemptive outcome.

I am sure something redemptive and eternal will come out of the Joplin "disaster", but we will never know what it is till we get to heaven.

God even redeemed someone out of Sodom.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A777

 2011/5/25 1:00
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi OldJoe,

Quote:

We kind of figured that, but where did the air masses come from? Who arranged them? Why did they collide exactly where they did?



As I said, God is the Creator of the Universe. He is the Author of the laws of nature and set the order of nature in motion when He created the universe "in the beginning."

Where did the air masses come from -- and why did they collide? Why did they collide where they did?

They are products of many factors -- particularly seasons. Most tornadoes take place during the Spring...and in the same general regions. Why? Arctic air masses are still powerful enough to push southeast while the Earth is tilted on its axis at a warmer angle (for the Northern Hemisphere) toward the Sun during its elliptical revolution. While they can form anywhere, the vast majority occur in the less mountainous regions known as "tornado ally" where the arctic fronts haven't lost much energy and meet equatorial warm (and energy rich) air masses. When the energy from the cold air collide with the energy from the warm air -- powerfully violent "supercells" are formed. The supercells often spawn tornadoes. This has been replicated in laboratories and via computational fluid dynamic models.

Of course, all of these things were initially "set in motion" when God created the Earth. This is the "order" to which the Earth -- outside of divine intervention -- is confined.

Quote:

No, what we are telling you is that your laws of nature being passively observed by God are a load of bunk. God didn't just create the world and set everything in motion and then sit back in His proverbial easy chair to watch what would happen.



First of all, these are not MY laws of nature. God is the Creator of all things -- including the laws of nature. Therefore, they aren't "bunk." You can see these "laws" every time you experience the changes of the seasons...breathe air (and not a different concoction of gases)...or fall to the ground via the measured laws of gravity. God is not confined to the laws that He authored, but He did place us in a universe where those laws are in "order."

Moreover, no one has accused God of sitting in an "easy chair." However, the general principles for His Creation were set in motion and are quite firm. God "set" the moon and stars in their places. At Creation, God "set" the Earth into motion to the point that it rotates once every ~24 hours and revolves around the Sun approximately once every 365 days.

Even God took note of the "days" that were set in motion -- noting that the "Sabbath" was the day in which He RESTED from His Creation. This is the "set in motion" that I was speaking of.

Interestingly, Jesus said that man can predict the weather by looking at the sky (Matthew 16:1-3). If God was controlling all of the weather on a basis completely independent of the laws that the Lord set in motion, then how could men determine weather by the appearance of the sky?

Now, again, God is NOT confined to the order to the Universe (and the Earth) that He defined at Creation. After all, He created light BEFORE He created the Sun and the stars. He superseded the laws of physics and nature by walking on water -- and Peter did the same (until he took his eyes off of Jesus and looked at the waves). However, I haven't met anyone else who has walked on water. Why? The laws and order of nature were set in motion...and are superseded only by supernatural act of God. Nothing is impossible for God (or for those who believe). So, God could easily intervene on behalf of His people and interfere with the very order to Creation that He set up.

While we know that there will be a full moon on June 14th-16th, God could easily STOP it. However, so far, God hasn't stopped that cycle. Because the laws of nature -- the order of the universe that God designed -- is so precise, we can determine when the next solar and lunar eclipses will take place. In fact, the next total lunar eclipse will take place on June 15th. Of course, that is unless God decides to bypass the very order to nature that He put into place at Creation.

I think that everyone would agree that God oversees all of His Creation. However, the Lord rested from His work of Creation following the sixth day. While no one would accuse God of sitting in an "easy chair," He is omnipotent in overseeing all of Creation at all times.

This brings me to the gist of what I was asking. Do people believe that God caused the tornado in Joplin, Missouri by purposely deciding to bring it about an act of judgment (as it seems that some have tried to insinuate)? In other words, did God supersede the order of nature and suddenly create a tornado apart from "natural" weather to destroy a town and kill 124+ people? Or are people just saying that God oversees the entire world -- including every storm -- even by the order that He set (including laws of weather) at Creation?

The reason that I asked is because my wife read some of the posts and couldn't understand what people were saying. She said that it appeared that some people were accusing God of suddenly creating a tornado as an act of judgment upon the little town of Joplin, Missouri. As my wife said, if that is what people are actually writing, that is quite an accusation to make. I read through these posts and I just couldn't tell what some people were trying to say...which was why I asked.

I think that we all agree that God oversees the Earth and will continue through the fulfillment of all things. However, I am more interested with the notion that some people seemed to insinuate that this particular tornado (one of an average of 1000-1400 per year) was a supernatural ("super" + "natural" = "above/outside" + "nature") decision that bypassed natural order of weather that God defined and set in order "in the beginning."

I hope that clarifies what I was saying.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/5/25 1:42Profile
HeartSong
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Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3170


 Re:

Quote:
Do people believe that God caused the tornado in Joplin, Missouri by purposely deciding to bring it about an act of judgment (as it seems that some have tried to insinuate)? In other words, did God supersede the order of nature and suddenly create a tornado apart from "natural" weather to destroy a town and kill 124+ people? Or are people just saying that God oversees the entire world -- including every storm -- even by the order that He set (including laws of weather) at Creation?


When I had my "accident," my vehicle went end, over end, the length of a football field, finally landing on it's wheels, facing the way it had come. When I opened my eyes, my wrist that had been broken was the first thing I saw as it was positioned right in front of my face. It was my only injury. I had sinned using that wrist just the day before.

I was punished for my sin. It was a perfectly just punishment - so much so that I marveled at the perfect justice of the LORD. All of the rest really doesn't matter - He is perfect, and He is just.

 2011/5/25 3:14Profile









 Re: Joplin , MO, takes a big hit by a tornado


InTheLight said,

Quote:
I believe that all the world was under the dominion of man when he was created, including the elements.

Hi bro,

I don't think there's any scriptural evidence to support 'including the elements'. I believe God has kept them in His own hand, although there are great stories of answered prayer for rain, or protection, or miraculous escapes in fog, in which He has heard and responded to His people's requests.

 2011/5/25 6:30









 Re:

Quote:
Do people believe that God caused the tornado in Joplin, Missouri by purposely deciding to bring it about an act of judgment (as it seems that some have tried to insinuate)?



To answer clearly, YES God purposely decided to bring about that tornado and destroy that town. For some it will be an act of judgment, but for others it will be an act of mercy.


OJ

 2011/5/25 8:24









 Re:

Chris

Question for you:

If you lived in the tornado zone and it MISSED your house, would you be thankful to God? Why or why not?


OJ

 2011/5/25 8:39
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2774
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I don't think there's any scriptural evidence to support 'including the elements'. I believe God has kept them in His own hand, although there are great stories of answered prayer for rain, or protection, or miraculous escapes in fog, in which He has heard and responded to His people's requests.



I believe that the verse I quoted which states that man was given dominion "over all the earth" includes what we would call supernatural powers but was merely natural to Adam. Watchman Nee discussed these powers when he wrote on the Latent Power of the Soul. William Gurnall also wrote of a peace that was lost with "the creature" including things like fire and water in his book The Christian in Complete Armor.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2011/5/25 9:31Profile









 Re:

But it is really all speculation isn't it? There are no examples of Adam controlling the elements before he fell. Some people think he was able to fly too, but there is no evidence.

This is what God said.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Nothing about the elements.

Read Job 38 and you will see that God controls all the elements.

A777

 2011/5/25 9:52
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2774
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
But it is really all speculation isn't it?



There is much speculation in this thread, wouldn't you agree?

Wouldn't you also agree that even if Adam didn't originally have dominion "over all the earth", that things aren't the way they were originally intended to be? The whole of creation groans under the weight of sin and there is suffering and pain in the world as a result. This is why I say that when these things come upon the earth I don't think about God judging a particular people, but rather a deeper hatred for sin is stirred in me.


Quote:
Read Job 38 and you will see that God controls all the elements


God's sovereignty over creation is not in question when we say that God in His sovereignty gave Adam dominion over His creation as he walked in subjection to God.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2011/5/25 10:40Profile









 Re:

We have to trust God on the things in this life that we don't know about. The tendency, like Job's Comforters, is to judge WHY EXACTLY SOMETHING HAPPENED. Job's comforters were way off the mark and most of the time we are too.

Like I said, this is what we know.

1. God did not intervene to stop these storms.
2. We are not hapless victims of circumstances or "nature".
3. Man does not view these storms as blessings. We don't know how God views them or what His many purposes are in allowing them.
4. There is a reason for everything that God allows.
5. Job did not view the natural elements that wreaked havoc on his family as blessings.
6. As Job says, "are we to take good from the Lord and not bad also?"
7. Job viewed all of the "natural" tragedies as coming from God's hand.


The greatest power in this world is God. He can stop it but He chose not to.

And, as Job says, "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord."

A777

 2011/5/25 11:41





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