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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hell: did Jesus die for those burning..?

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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Once he stands though, Jesus issues another command to stetch forth his withered hand, and this command, this word, brings with it the power to accomplish what is commanded and the man is healed. Praise God!


Thanks Ron
I had not seen it illustrated in these verses.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/12/3 17:05Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

anti_paradox,

Just so this is by itself, not lost in the jumble, and clear: what are you getting at? What are you trying to convince us of, specifically? You say you're not a universalist, nor someone who thinks all ethnic Jews are necessarily saved (that was what I got out of those two lines), and you haven't responded to queries concerning your Calvinicity.

Are you a Calvinist? Or does your position not easily succumb to any of the labels we've attempted to apply to it? I'm not necessarily looking for a one-word or one-line (or even one-paragraph) answer, just something clear and directly to the point.

I'm asking because it's much easier to respond to someone when I understand where they're coming from, and it's much easier to understand an argument when I understand which conclusion is being reached.

If you don't wish to answer this question, please mention the fact that you don't wish to answer it, so I'll know that you did in fact read it (previous enqueries seem to have been lost in the shuffle).

Thank you,
-Keith

 2004/12/3 18:33Profile
anti_paradox
Member



Joined: 2004/11/30
Posts: 13


 Re:

Quote:
RobertW: Would God command a man to do something without providing him with the grace to respond rightly?




2Th 2:11 God will send to them a working of error,

[b]NO GRACE[/b]

for them to believe the lie,

[b]NO GRACE[/b]

2Th 2:12 that all may be judged,

[b]JUDGMENT[/b]


 2004/12/3 19:50Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

anti_paradox,

Also, as you have just now provided another example, your discussion style is, as an Englishman might put it, mildly antagonistic.

Personally, I think I can still engage in fruitful dialogue despite that, but it may cause serious complications with others around here whom could otherwise make very significant contributions.

If you wish to [b]attack[/b] our positions (and, it may be construed, our positions [b]and[/b] us ourselves) with all the gusto appropriate to a hand-to-hand fight to the death, I won't object (others might). But if you pursue that course, please be prepared for the veritable certainty that your respondants will be [b]defending[/b] themselves, and a defensive person is not always (indeed, quite infrequently) a fruitful discussion partner.

So, we can go at it with the swords and polearms, or we can try to understand one another, (hopefully) reach a better understanding of the issue at hand, and just maybe one or more of us will change our minds about something.

 2004/12/3 20:11Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
RobertW's quote: Would God command a man to do something without providing him with the grace to respond rightly?

anti_paradox 2004/12/4 0:50 response:
2Th 2:11 God will send to them a working of error,
NO GRACE

for them to believe the lie,
NO GRACE

2Th 2:12 that all may be judged,
JUDGMENT



The question you have not asked is 'who is 'they'?'

Answer: [b]...them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.[/b] (2Th 2:10 KJV) I'll fine tune the tenses for you
[b]them that are in process of perishing because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved[/b]

In other words, your verses are speaking of the judgement upon those who [u]chose[/u] not to receive the love of the truth. They are in process of perishing because of their [u]choice[/u]. The judgement you quoted is the final consequence of their wrong [u]choice[/u].

There are two main verbs for 'receive' in Greek.
[i][b]lamban0[/b][/i] is more active; it has the sense of reaching out and taking. It might be translated 'take'.
[i][b]dechomai[/b][/i] (which is the one used here) is more passive and has the sense of someone having placed something into an open hand. It might be translated 'accept'.
In this present context, the judgement that you quoted was the consequence of those who [u]chose[/u] to keep their hand closed and would not receive what was offered. These have not only passively 'not received' they have actively rejected what God has offered in refusing to accept His offered gift.

Here's a little tip from John Wycliffe (1324-1384) to help you in your studies...

[font=Georgia]It Shall Greatly Helpe Ye To Understande Scripture If Thou Mark...
Not only what is Spoken or Wrytten
but of Whom
and to Whom
with what Words
at what Time
Where
to what Intent
with what Circumstances
considering what Goeth Before
and what Followeth.[/font]

btw I am still waiting for your explanation of Moses and Joshua commanding the people to [u]choose[/u].


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/12/4 3:12Profile
anti_paradox
Member



Joined: 2004/11/30
Posts: 13


 Re:

Quote:
Philogos: Joshua was commanded to 'choose'; his choice was not made for him...When He says 'choose' you can 'choose'.



[b]Philogos does man's choosing ULTIMATELY determine, ULTIMATELY decide, ULTIMATELY cause the future?




No, the Bible equates human choices as DERIVED from, RESULTING from, CAUSED by God alone.

Let's read Deut 30:19-20:[/b]
Deut 30:19-20 choose life, that you may live, you and your seed, to love Jehovah your God.


[b]Philogos: by your reasoning because God commands them to "choose life", an Israelite could ULTIMATELY determine the future of his family.

Philogos, does man determine the future?
Is history uncertain, undetermined, accidental, and out-of-control?




No, read back to verse 6:[/b]
Deut 30:6 And Jehovah your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Jehovah your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live.

[b]Can man circumcise his own totally darkened heart? No!

And Who causes the dead sinner to "choose life"? Jehovah!

1 Jehovah circumcises the heart, so that
2 A man will love Jehovah, so that
3 You may live


Philogos, do you see that man only follows God because he first regenerates the heart? Do you see that choosing life and loving Jehovah are FRUITS of the gospel?[/b]

Deu 9:5 It is NOT for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you go to possess their land [b][Your choice did NOT save you][/b]. But Jehovah your God is dispossessing them ... in order to establish the Word which Jehovah has sworn to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.[b][Instead, God's Promise saves[/b]]




[b]Philogos, I asked you earlier, who ULTIMATELY determined/caused/decided your "salvation" ?





For if man ULTIMATELY determines, then God is REACTING.

If God is reacting then his promises are not sure and certain.

The gospel is God's promise to save His people based on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ.

But if God reacts, His promises are not sure and certain... and the gospel would not be sure and certain.




Is the gospel up to man?
Is God unsure and certain?




No, Rom 8:30 says the gospel IS sure and certain because God does NOT react to man's free wil:[/b]
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

[b]1 Prestination
2 Calling
3 Justification
4 Glorification[/b]




 2004/12/4 4:56Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
No, Rom 8:30 says the gospel IS sure and certain because God does NOT react to man's free wil:
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

1 Prestination
2 Calling
3 Justification
4 Glorification



When are you going to start reading the bible and not just proof texts? The verse before yours says [b]And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [/b] (Rom 8:28-29 KJV) If you read these verses you will discover that before your number 1, there are two previous stages
a. calling
b. foreknowledge

the list should read
1. Calling
2. Foreknowledge
3. Predestination
4. Justification
5. Glorification

If man has no contribution to make in his response to God's will he can have neither virtue nor sin.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/12/4 10:52Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
For if man ULTIMATELY determines, then God is REACTING.



Anti Paradox,

Have you discovered the end of your reasoning? Have you tested the finality of your theology? Your questions are hemming you into a dangerous theological corner. You must invariably make God both the author of sin and the father of lies. You have confused God with Satan. Better would it be to say that the passages that deal with election make no sense at all than to say it makes a sense such as this .

Any theology that makes God the author of sin or man the author of salvation must be rejected. Understand that God desires that all come to repentance. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)This has been proven by grace abounding much more where sin did abound. Hear Paul to Titus; For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,.... 'All' means everyone without exception. This grace is offered by the Spirit of Grace that is striving with all men to lead them to the throne of grace. Hardness is the result of resisting the Holy Spirit or quenching the Spirit, but the decision rests on the individual.

God cordially invites sinners to repentance through the various sources of light afford them. If men respond rightly to that light, God will give more light. If the light that is in them be continually resisted God shall take away the light that they do have. He will give them over to do those things which are not convenient. Man simply says, "God, just cut me loose." Cut me loose to sin uninhibited, with no grief of conscience or conviction of the Spirit. Woe unto any that would reach such wretchedness.



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/4 11:12Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Anti-Paradox,

Apparently and decidedly you are choosing to ignore the large part of the problem here.

Your quote:

Quote:
Philogos, I asked you earlier...



And we have asked you 'earlier' as well, no less than a half dozen times questions that you do not have the charity to answer. Are you above everyone else here?

You came here with a posting entitled: "Hell: did Jesus die for those burning..?"

And asked for comments. You have posited your opinions and have asked questions often by setting up straw men as was illustrated earlier by stating words not said by members here but by assumptions that you yourself have drawn from their responses.

So you decide which questions are to be asked and which questions you will choose to respond to. That is unacceptable here. This is not your pulpit to decide or to dictate how you may conduct yourself. A review of the guidelines established here is in order: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=7&forum=12&post_id=&refresh=Go]Community Rules[/url], #7 and #10 are where you are pushing it and why you have been formerly warned. It is your conduct that is rude and arrogant and we have been more than patient, allowed for misunderstandings and I actually wonder if I had not been to harsh earlier. I have no desire to tear you down, would love for you to continue here and apologize again if I have misread you and your intentions. But that is the problem. You refuse to answer any questions from myself or from many others here leaving us only to make assumptions of your motivation.

As to the topic at hand just what is it you have set out to accomplish? Thus far you have primarily only caused confusion and been in an argumentative state throughout. Is it beyond you to consider others more than yourself?

Think this applies very well not only to the topic
itself but to the problem as well:

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that [b]they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers[/b].

Some commentary;

[b]2Ti 2:14 -
That they strive not about words[/b] (mē logomachein). "Word apparently coined by Paul from logomachia (1Ti_6:4 which see), a back formation in that case. A mere war of words displeases Paul. (Tit_3:9).
[b]Useful[/b] (chrēsimon). Late and rare word from chraomai, here only in N.T.
[b]To the subverting[/b] (epi katastrophēi). Old word (from katastrephō, to turn down or over), here only in N.T. (except 2Pe_2:6 in some MSS., not in Westcott and Hort).” Because of the overthrow” (result epi, not aim), useless for this reason. Such war of words merely upsets the hearers."
[i]Robertsons Word Pictures[/i]

We give a pretty wide latitude here to discussing issues, topics, scripture and even our own personal experience on matters of faith and Christianity as a whole. There are members and contributers from all walks of life at different stages of experience and longevity in the faith. And from all over the world no less. One of the astounding factors is that we are primarily unified in the sense of:

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

We may differ in some doctrinal issues and have come from all kinds of different 'denominations' but that I have seen for the most part is a peculiar blending of, as opposed to a dividing force. Not taking that to extremes, am referring to Bible believing historical Christianity.

So it comes down to this;
Are you willing to share and partake, give and take? Be of some help in making disciples, listen, learn and grow like the rest of us?
Challenges are welcome if they are toward that end but not without response and consideration to everyone else here.

It is your choice. Either respond in kind or I see no reason why we should respond to you and suggest you take it elsewhere. This is the second warning.



_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/12/4 11:15Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If man has no contribution to make in his response to God's will he can have neither virtue nor sin.



Amen. And the whole of the Great Commission would be a mockery. Why should a man need good news if he is incapable of responding to it? And why would the Judge of all the Earth send his servants a pack of lies in their satchel as false witnesses of the Cross?

Sometimes men attempt to exalt God by a twisted emphasis of His sovereignty that makes the God of Love into a God of arbitrary damnation. Let God alone and let His own works praise Him in the gates if the praise must be construed to mar His character and the motivating characteristic of His personality (love). What glory does God receive when such teachings cause His enemies to blaspheme His name? God is sovereign enough and powerful enough to create a world in which men and women can choose if they shall have Him rule over them or not. Is there anything to hard for God?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/4 11:23Profile





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