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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hell: did Jesus die for those burning..?

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anti_paradox
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Joined: 2004/11/30
Posts: 13


 Re:

Quote:
Dohzman: Jn 6:48-58 Jesus here sets forth the possibility that men could reject him and die being eternally lost while the offer was constantly there for them.


[b]Dohzman, are you saying some that Christ provides His flesh and blood for will die eternally?[/b]

Joh 6:54 The one partaking of My flesh and drinking of My blood has **everlasting life**,

[b]Dohzman, does Christ think His people will be "eternally lost"?[/b]

Joh 6:54 and I will raise him up at the last day.



anti_universalism
pro_christianity

 2004/12/3 8:30Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But to say that he's a wolf or deciever or evil? I would just say he wrestling over matters of the law with which he's not very learned, that's all.



Hi Dozman,

I also gave some reflection to this since this thread has started. It is a good time to deal with this.

[b][size=small]Strifes About Words To No Profit[/size][/b]
[size=xx-small]By Robert Wurtz II[/size]

There are times when genuine questions arise concerning the Gospel. There are times when people genuinely want to know, "men what must we do?" There are other times when the enemy will send people to either knowingly deceive people or unknowingly deceive. When questions are brought out in such a manor as to minister questions rather than edify the hearers; action has to be taken immediately. Men's minds are easily riddled. Focus on what I just wrote; minister questions. Secular Philosophy teachers try to riddle the minds of Christains all the time, to try and overthrow their faith. I am dealing right now with a case where a sister in the Lord is being pounded in a secular college with all sorts of "ministering questions."

To the casual listener they do not see the tell tale signs of this; but an apologist sees them straitway. I am not saying I am an apologist, but I have focused many years of studies in this one area. False religion is the enemies most prized weapon. Universalism is cultic false religion.

Consider these passages:

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing. But doting about questions and strifes of words , whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputations of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness. From such withdraw thyself. O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science (falsely so called). Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. (I Tim. 6:3-5,20,21)

When you call yourself "Anti-paradox" you are not using words of ignorance; you are describing your intentions. Depending on the sense, it is like taking a doctrinal position and calling it "indesputable." moreover, when you leave no information about yourself and come in cloaked? Why did he not just call himself "The Riddler?" There would have been no real difference. Shall we sit by while young Christians who have no clue of what is being said are deceived and riddled? Shall we allow the enemy an occasion to "sift the saints at Sermonindex like wheat?" We are not ignorant of the Devils devices.


Riddling the Mind

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat (Luke 22:31)

"Desired" in the Greek is exaiteomai which means to demand (for trial, torture, punishment, etc.), and it is used only 1 time in the New Testament. "Sift" in the Greek is siniazo and it is only used once. It's root is sinion (a sieve); (fig) to riddle. The literal is, "to try by inward agitation to try one's faith to the verge of overthrow." So what does all of this mean? I believe that Satan sifted (riddled) Peter by taking advantage of some eschatological misunderstandings of Peter. How could the Messiah be dead? He is supposed to sit on the throne of David! (Etc. etc.). Jesus prayed for him and said when he was "converted" strengthen his brethren.

Satan is still ministering questions about obscure understandings of wonderful passages of scripture to riddle minds. Some things are hard to be understood, which some rest upon unto their own destruction. As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest as they do also other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. (II Peter 3)

We, as believers, welcome any honest questions. We have to be cautious and if necessary error on the side of caution when false doctrine is being presented. We simply cannot allow a person to come in and minister questions to the people to riddle their minds. The sheep may be able to handle this, but the lambs cannot. That is who the enemy is after, the little lambs. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/3 8:30Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
anti_universalism
pro_christianity



Anti-paradox,

Are you are making a case for:

1) Eternal Security
2) Universalism
3) The Unconditional Salvation of the Jews



Your "stick and move" questioning is making a lot of unnecessary waves. We can discuss these issues no problem, but tthere has to be a different method than this if we are to make any headway.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/3 8:36Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Strifes About Words To No Profit

Thanks Robert,

This is very well said and it does appear Anti-has no intention other than to espouse his own questions and agenda, vague as he has chosen to present himself.

We have asked genuinely and with much patience to consider others thoughts here but to no avail. No answers other than a quick quip and another cut and run.

Anti-Paradox, you have overstayed your welcome, refused to consider others thoughts or answer the many questions being asked of [b]you[/b] while you continue on this little charade of yours. We have allowed for the possibility of misunderstanding but by your actions you have shown you are more interested in yourself and your opinions than in bringing anything edifying or even a willingness to engage in a discussion.

If it is a platform you are seeking to espouse your ideas without challenge I suggest you start your own website. This is not a place for opinion without rebuttal.

Does it not seem odd to you that by conducting yourself in this manner you only leave us to make assumptions about your motives? Or is that your intention, to be this 'mysterious' questioner of questions? Our Lord certainly challenged many by answering certain questions with [b]real[/b] questions that cut to the true meaning and motives of the heart. If this is what you are attempting to mirror, you are failing miserably.

Again I ask you to consider your heart, consider the members of this site or consider this a warning and a rebuke.

As Robert stated:

Quote:
When you call yourself "Anti-paradox" you are not using words of ignorance; you are describing your intentions. When you leave no information about yourself and come in cloaked? Why did he not just call himself "The Riddler?" There would have been no real difference. Shall we sit by while young Christians who have no clue of what is being said are deceived and riddled? Shall we allow the enemy an occasion to "sift the saints at Sermonindex like wheat?" We are not ignorant of the Devils devices.



Indeed, I don't think you know just who you think you are dealing with here. There are some seasoned saints amongst us and that is not boasting, you are getting nowhere with all this.

Cease and desist in your conduct or you will be removed.


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Mike Balog

 2004/12/3 10:06Profile
anti_paradox
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Joined: 2004/11/30
Posts: 13


 Re:

Quote:
Philologos[2004/12/2 18:10]: Your version dehumanizes our race in removing all possibility of moral choice. If the whole thing is automatic and [i]requires no response why are men required to repent and believe? [/i]




[b]To answer your question, no, the gospel does not "dehumanize our race".

Yes, all men are commanded to repent and believe the gospel[/b] [Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now strictly commands all men everywhere to repent, ]. [b]Yes, the Bible makes clear, men, whether reprobate or elect are commanded to believe the truth. Indeed, God doesn't command people to believe lies.[/b] [Exo 20:16 You shall not testify a witness of falsehood against your neighbor.]



[b]But the gifts of repentance and belief do not cause salvation, they are an *effect*. Unless you deny Eph 2:8:[/b]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;



[b]Eph 2:8 is saying that a dead sinner cannot make a "moral choice".

That would be "of yourselves", NOT a gift of God and NOT a fruit of God.

"Moral choice" means YOU.
Eph 2:8 means GOD.


Eph 2: 8 denies chance, choice, luck, free-will, fortune, response and accident.



QUESTION FOR PHILOGOS
Philogos, I'm wondering if you think God owes you salvation for what you consider your "choice" and "response".

Philogos what *caused* your salvation?

You or God?[/b]






anti_unconditional_salvation_of_reprobate_jews
pro_unconditional_salvation_of_elect_jews

 2004/12/3 10:39Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
QUESTION FOR PHILOGOS
Philogos, I'm wondering if you think God owes you salvation for what you consider your "choice" and "response".

Philogos what *caused* your salvation?


For any who have been around these threads my views are pretty well known. Stick around a while. Listen from time to time. We were given two ears and one mouth; perhaps that was a hint at how we should proportion their use. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/3 10:51Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Eph 2: 8 denies chance, choice, luck, free-will, fortune, response and accident.



I categorically refute this statement as false when it clumps 'chance', 'luck', and 'fortune' with choice, free-will, and response.

The same sovereign God who has revealed Himself to be motivated primarily by His love, has the power and ability to allow man to exercise the choice to respond to the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
Yes, all men are commanded to repent and believe the gospel [Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now strictly commands all men everywhere to repent, ]. Yes, the Bible makes clear, men, whether reprobate or elect are commanded to believe the truth. Indeed, God doesn't command people to believe lies. [Exo 20:16 You shall not testify a witness of falsehood against your neighbor.]




Would God command a man to do something without providing him with the grace to respond rightly? When Jesus wept over Jerusalem were those false tears? Was that a mere 'put on'? Nay verily! What was he weeping for? Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those that are sent unto her, how often would I have gathered thy children as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37 Darby) He was weeping because "they would not?" Would not what? Be gathered under his 'wings'.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/3 10:56Profile
anti_paradox
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Joined: 2004/11/30
Posts: 13


 Re:

[b]Philogos, where is the "moral choice" in Ezekial 11:19?[/b]



Ezekial 11:19 And [b]I[/b] [not you]

shall give to them one heart,

and [b]I[/b] [not you]

will put a new spirit within you.

And [b]I[/b] [not you] will remove the stony heart out of their flesh,

and [b]I[/b] [not you] will give them a heart of flesh,

 2004/12/3 10:56Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Philogos, where is the "moral choice" in Ezekial 11:19?


I love Ezekiel and his prophecies of regeneration. But you must not confuse God's part with man's. To make sure we are talking the same language please explain to me what the underlined word means in each of these verses means...

[b]That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they [u]chose[/u]. [/b] (Gen 6:2 KJV)

[b]Then Lot [u]chose[/u] him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other. [/b] (Gen 13:11 KJV)

[b]The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor [u]choose you[/u], because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:[/b] (Deu 7:7 KJV)

[b]But at the place which the LORD thy God shall [u]choose[/u] to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt. [/b] (Deu 16:6 KJV)

[b]Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall [u]choose[/u]: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. [/b] (Deu 17:15 KJV)

[b]I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore [u]choose[/u] life, that both thou and thy seed may live: [/b] (Deu 30:19 KJV)

[b]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, [u]choose[/u] you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. [/b] (Jos 24:15 KJV)

Joshua was commanded to 'choose'; his choice was not made for him. God's command is His enabling. When He says 'choose' you can 'choose', in fact, you must. Incidentally, just to save you the time, the same word is used in each of these quotations. Whatever it was God did, it was this same act that he demanded through Joshua.



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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/3 13:29Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2778
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Joshua was commanded to 'choose'; his choice was not made for him. God's command is His enabling. When He says 'choose' you can 'choose', in fact, you must.



I think there is a passage from Luke that illustrates this point Ron has made;

[i]And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered. And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him. But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth. Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy [it]? And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.[/i]
(Luke 6:6-10)

The man with the withered hand was commanded by Jesus first to stand up, he had to make a choice, a difficult choice because standing meant he was siding with Jesus whom the Pharisees were against and it also meant bringing attention to himself and his crippled hand, no small thing in those days.

Once he stands though, Jesus issues another command to stetch forth his withered hand, and this command, this word, brings with it the power to accomplish what is commanded and the man is healed. Praise God!

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/12/3 14:35Profile





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