RobertW:The Holy Spirit is striving with man to cooperate with Him in making appropriation of the atonement.
[b]Rob, are you denying that every single person lead by the Spirit of Truth is a son of God?[/b]
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
[b]Was God striving with Israel, when he commanded to Isaiah:[/b]
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make his ears heavy, and shut his eyes, that he not see with his eyes, and hear with his ears, and understand with his heart, and turn back, and one heals him.
[b]Rob, are you denying Isaiah 6:10?
If you believe "God" strives with every single person without any exceptions you certainly are.[/b]
| 2004/12/1 18:54||Profile|
Phoenix, Arizona USA
I must say that you are quite accomplished at setting up and knocking down straw men. Oh that you would give some clear answers to the questions posed with the same effort.
| 2004/12/1 19:00||Profile|
[b]Philogos, I understand the gospel.
My friend put the gospel well:
Read Joh_19:28-30. It is finished!
There is no work for the sinner to do for salvation!
To say that there is still work for the sinner to do for salvation would be to say, "It is not finished" and to call the blessed Lord Jesus a liar. But we who are Christ's people, Christ's sheep, Christ's church - those who have been given by God the Father to God the Son, for whom Jesus led a perfect life and died on the cross - we know that it is finished. We have a Sabbath rest, as Hebrews 4 says, because God has caused us to rest from our works and to trust in Jesus Christ ALONE for ALL of our salvation.
To God ALONE be the glory.[/b]
| 2004/12/1 19:08||Profile|
---Philogos:It is vivid picture; all sins
past, present, future
gathered together and laid upon the worlds sin-bearer. all sins, all mine, all yours, all his, all everyones!
It is a vivid picture; all sins .. past, present, future
And for Philogos what does all this bloody-death accomplish *in and of itself*?[/b]
It accomplished a torn veil through which men may come; a new and living way. In your version the veil is removed; this is not the bibles revelation. This hymn of Charles Wesley captures the truth beautifully
Tis finished! The Messiah dies,
Cut off for sins, but not His own:
[u]Accomplished is the sacrifice,
The great redeeming work is done.[/u]
Tis finished! all the debt is paid;
Justice divine is satisfied;
[u]The grand and full atonement made;
God for a guilty world hath died.[/u]
[b][i]The veil is rent in Christ alone;
The living way to heaven is seen;
The middle wall is broken down,
And [u]all mankind may enter in[/u].[/b][/i]
The types and figures are fulfilled;
Exacted is the legal pain;
The precious promises are sealed;
The spotless Lamb of God is slain.
The reign of sin and death is oer,
And all may live from sin set free;
Satan hath lost his mortal power;
Tis swallowed up in victory.
Saved from the legal curse I am,
My Savior hangs on yonder tree:
See there the meek, expiring Lamb!
Tis finished! He expires for me.
Accepted in the Well-beloved,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
I see the bar to heaven removed;
And all Thy merits, Lord, are mine.
[i][b]Death, hell, and sin are now subdued;
All grace is now to sinners given;
And lo, I plead the atoning blood,
And in Thy right I claim Thy heaven![/i][/b]
Only in Christ is the veil torn and only through Him may the world enter in. This hymn expresses, beautfully, the finished work of Christ and the human reponse necessary.
Incidentally, your version dehumanizes our race in removing all possibility of moral choice. If the whole thing is automatic and requires no response why are men required to repent and believe?
| 2004/12/2 3:10||Profile|
We have a Sabbath rest, as Hebrews 4 says, because God has caused us to rest from our works and to trust in Jesus Christ ALONE for ALL of our salvation.
We have a Sabbath rest, that we are required 'to enter into.' [b]For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.[/b]
(Heb 4:10-11 NASB)
The whole chapter of Heb 4 is a reminder of a people who had everything laid out for them in a land that God gave to them as their possession but which they forfeited for 40 years because of their unbelief.
This passage does not say that all have entered in, it says 'we' that is the writer and those to whom he wrote. Indeed there 'remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God' but entering is their responisibility.
| 2004/12/2 3:18||Profile|
Philogos denies the gospel in Col 1:20:
Col 1:20 and through Him making peace by the blood of His cross, to reconcile all things to Himself;
For Philogos ALL things represented at the cross were not reconciled. Philogos says reconciling Jesus cannot reconcile ALL things represented.
How far does your universalism take you? Do you believe that Satan [u]has been[/u] reconciled too?
| 2004/12/2 3:20||Profile|
Is it just me or does it seem like as soon as many of us log out all these posts show up with none here to take them on immediately? Is that a strategy, because they could have been answered while we all waited yesterday afternoon.
For I know this, that there will come in amongst you after my departure grievous wolves, not sparing the flock (Acts 20:29)
For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4 ASV)
The level of deception is very deep at this point. The mind gets fixed on a lie and then the heart starts spreading it.
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived (II Timothy 3:13)
How far does your universalism take you?
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/12/2 7:53||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
Going back throughout this thread the disturbing element is in making assumptions and putting words into others mouths.
If this is an agenda you have as opposed to actually asking questions that you want to discuss or have answers for, then you have come to the wrong place.
Has it occurred to you that though you know none of us you feel free to make critical comments and pass judgment on members of this site?
We are primarily a patient and loving bunch. We also disagree often on matters that are secondary. This is not one of them. If you are espousing Universalism why not state it plainly as was asked earlier? And if you cannot refrain from using this forum to only push your own ideas without regard to others here, have no intention of dialog and discussion, then there is no reason to continue.
I would ask that you consider your heart in these matters, consider the members of this site and consider these words:
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
| 2004/12/2 9:10||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
An olive branch...
Afterwords went to praying and a couple of things came up.
It happens, and often in this type of setting.
Part of the problem is 'no prior history'.
We know next to nothing about you brother, no introduction, no other threads that you have responded to unrelated to this particular topic.
Have you listened to any of the sermons here?
This happens from time to time, where someone will come in with strong views about something or the other without really getting a 'feel' for the site and it's forum. Perhaps it was overlooked but this is not your typical setting. This is a family and a kinship knitted together by the Lord.
Not that anyone needs defending but at some point it needs to be stated that there is a tolerance level and conduct is of primary concern here.
So maybe you could help us all by giving some background and answering some of these and others questions that have been asked.
In an otherwise semi-related parallel the other thing that came up was how much I dislike having to deal with these disturbing types of issues. It is always a grievous process. The thought that came to me was how much we grieve the Holy Spirit when, if I could put this with some reverence, we 'force His hand'. Had not really stopped to consider that much before. How much more it grieves Him...
On human terms, similar to the father giving a spanking and stating "[i]this is going to hurt me much more than it's going to hurt you[/i]"
Don't get me wrong, this doesn't all apply here to this posting, just a thought...
| 2004/12/2 10:03||Profile|
Good points Bro. Mike.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/12/2 10:29||Profile|