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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
For by1 grace are ye saved through2 faith; and that3 not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph 2:8 KJV)


This is my own quote but I wanted to draw attention to the prepositions.

1. is not a preposition but the declension of the noun 'charis' supports the translation 'by' as the originating condition.

2. this is 'dia' which gives the route through which 'grace' does its work.

3. to what does the pronoun refer? the pronoun here would have to be feminine to agree with either grace or faith but it isn't. The 'that' referred to is the saving work of God, in other words, salvation.

Grace then is the source, faith the channel through which salvation, which is of God and not of 'yourselves', is achieved


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/12/30 9:06Profile
Svineklev
Member



Joined: 2004/12/14
Posts: 74


 Re:

Ron--

No one is tweaking Paul. One is deciding which of two options is true:

1. For by Grace (and nothing else) are ye saved through faith (and nothing else).

2. For by Grace (and something else) are ye saved through faith (and something else).

I think it's readily apparent which is the natural reading of this text. Protestantism doesn't tweak the text in this case, but untweaks the tweakers of it.

Whose side are [i]you[/i] on?

--Eric

 2004/12/31 14:22Profile
Svineklev
Member



Joined: 2004/12/14
Posts: 74


 Re:

Robert--

I fail to see how [i]Solus Spiritus Sanctus[/i] says anything more than [i]Solus Christus[/i].

Is the Trinity not in complete agreement?

--Eric

 2004/12/31 14:40Profile
Svineklev
Member



Joined: 2004/12/14
Posts: 74


 Re:

Ron--

You make a distinction between 'finding' and 'discovering' (which you take to mean 'uncovering').

Are you saying that one is passive and the other is not? It may be argued that prayerful listening to God is passive, but determining to be obedient is undoubtedly active.

Where are you coming up with the concept of [i]deeper[/i] prayer? There is certainly no mention of greater depth in Philippians 1. And surely the Spirit [i]always[/i] intercedes for us (Romans 8:26-27) not just when we attain unto some New Age "God consciousness." I can see a notion of [i]genuine[/i] prayer in Scripture, but none of this "deeper" mumbo-jumbo.

Did you get that from the Bible...or from the systematics of the Keswick Movement?

--Eric

PS: I know this sounds like I'm sticking my hand in a hornet's nest for the mere pleasure of stirring up trouble. Actually, all I want is the biblical basis for your argument.

Have a great New Year's!

 2004/12/31 15:10Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Whose side are you on?


I'm on the side of the text which mentions no solas, but simply says that salvation is the free gift of God by grace which is God's responsibility and faith which is mine.

It is not by grace alone, but by grace through faith. The salvation process is by grace and through faith.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/12/31 15:31Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Eric -

Quote:
Where are you coming up with the concept of deeper prayer? There is certainly no mention of greater depth in Philippians 1. And surely the Spirit always intercedes for us (Romans 8:26-27) not just when we attain unto some New Age "God consciousness." I can see a notion of genuine prayer in Scripture, but none of this "deeper" mumbo-jumbo.
Did you get that from the Bible...or from the systematics of the Keswick Movement?



Gee it's not often I get accused of New Age, mumbo jumbo AND holding to Keswick Teaching all in one posting. Just where did you learn your discussion skills? Is it too late to ask for your money back? (just joking) I am beginning to see you prefer rough-house discussion, and am unwilling to accommodate you, but I [i]will[/i] try to answer the question.

Let's eliminate the Keswick thing first. Probably 99% of this readership is not going to know what Keswick is, but let me say I don't hold to Keswick teaching, but then again not many Keswick people do now; it has pretty much drifted into anaemic evangelicalism. In the days when 'deeper life' teaching was available I would almost certainly have identified myself with Oswald Chambers and the Pentecostal League of Prayer rather than Keswick suppression/counteraction teaching.

New Age? you've obviously not read the furore I caused on the mysticism thread. :-)

I guess that must leave mumbo jumbo. Have you never prayed and discovered the prayer taking you with it? Have you never begun to pray for one thing and discovered that as you prayed desires bubbled up from your heart that you had not realised were there? Have you never prayed for one line of action only to find that as you prayed you were led to embrace another? If not, there's nothing I can say to explain it to you. However, if you haven't I doubt if you have ever prayed.

Quote:
You make a distinction between 'finding' and 'discovering' (which you take to mean 'uncovering').

Are you saying that one is passive and the other is not? It may be argued that prayerful listening to God is passive, but determining to be obedient is undoubtedly active.

I only made that distinction to try to show you that it wasn't something you had to go to search for, but that it needed to be 'uncovered' or revealed. The revelation is when I discover that I can obey God in the thing where I knew I couldn't. That He that is within me is greater...

Several days after this posting I read this quotation from Oswald Chambers [i]"The Spirit of God alters my dominating desires; He alters the thing that matters, and a universe of desires I had never known before, suddenly comes on the horizon."[/i]


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/31 15:49Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Svineklev,

Quote:
I fail to see how Solus Spiritus Sanctus says anything more than Solus Christus.



Wow, is this an open door for a 100 post thread! Sure they are in agreement, obviously. I have some awesome material on the Trinity I could share, but that's not the point. We would glean nothing pastoral from it. So I won't go there.

I'm talking about the office of the Holy Spirit as that working plays out in our lives bringing us to salvation. Everything boils down to how you respond to the Holy Ghost. That is always the case. I see most of salvation as a person's response to the Holy Spirit. Will you resist or will you submit (yield)?

Quote:
Where are you coming up with the concept of deeper prayer? There is certainly no mention of greater depth in Philippians 1. And surely the Spirit always intercedes for us (Romans 8:26-27) not just when we attain unto some New Age "God consciousness." I can see a notion of genuine prayer in Scripture, but none of this "deeper" mumbo-jumbo.



This would be a good time to go into the Holy Spirit's role in helping us to pray. As a Pentecostal, we could take this discussion to a whole new level. maybe we could start a new thread on it.;-) Finney is a good place to start though. He has a Lecture called; [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=3725]The Spirit of Prayer[/url] which is very good. It deals with the Holy Spirit coming upon people and congregations so they can really pray and not just mutter words in their own power. There is a audio of it [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=226]HERE.[/url]

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/31 18:49Profile
Svineklev
Member



Joined: 2004/12/14
Posts: 74


 Re:

Robert--

What I am saying is that I don't believe anyone from a Reformed stance would have any trouble saying that justification is by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone through the agency of the Holy Spirit alone (initiated by the Father alone). I think it's not spelled out because those who would have troubles with Solus Christus would have the exact same troubles with the other members of the Trinity.

And of course, we wouldn't be able to agree with you that it "all boils down to how you respond to the Holy Ghost." We believe it all boils down to Him...and not us.

--Eric

 2005/1/8 14:19Profile
Svineklev
Member



Joined: 2004/12/14
Posts: 74


 Re:

Ron--

Sorry about the "mumbo-jumbo" gibberish. I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from. Do you (or for that matter Robert) have posts on other threads where you outline your basic beliefs? It would help immensely.

By the way, the Holy Spirit is not a respecter of denominations. Your nicely-put quote on prayer aptly describes an experience we share in common:

"Have you never prayed and discovered the prayer taking you with it? Have you never begun to pray for one thing and discovered that as you prayed desires bubbled up from your heart that you had not realised were there? Have you never prayed for one line of action only to find that as you prayed you were led to embrace another? If not, there's nothing I can say to explain it to you. However, if you haven't I doubt if you have ever prayed."

--Eric

 2005/1/8 14:31Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Sorry about the "mumbo-jumbo" gibberish. I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from. Do you (or for that matter Robert) have posts on other threads where you outline your basic beliefs? It would help immensely.

Yes, I guessed you were trying to figure out where I was 'coming from'. For myself I have no threads where I have outlined my basic beliefs. I subscribe to no school of theology but am happy to be identified with the people of God whereever they may be found.

I have a four part series on what it means to have 'begun in the Spirit' that Greg has been kind enough to place on the site here. That would tell you my 'basics'.
Repentance
Justification
Regeneration
Adoption

If you discover 'where I am coming from' please be sure to let me know.


Quote:
By the way, the Holy Spirit is not a respecter of denominations. Your nicely-put quote on prayer aptly describes an experience we share in common:

Neither am I. I don't belong to one.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/1/8 14:47Profile





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