| Hell: did Jesus die for those burning..?|
Would you say Jesus Christ's redeeming work saves *in and of itself*?
By that I mean people only go to heaven because of Christ's completely satisfactory death and perfect law-keeping alone. That is, the difference between salvation and damnation is the work of Christ alone. Therefore, if you accept this then the work of Christ ensures salvation for all whom Christ represented.
What do you think?
Atonement means reconcilation, right?
But if people for whom Christ died go to hell then his atoning blood didn't achieve reconciliation !!
Furthermore, do you agree that propitation means to appease ?
Then God is appeased with everyone for whom Christ died, right?
Finally, to redeem means to pay the price for a possession so as to rescue.
Do you agree? Because if you agree then all whom Christ redeemed are rescued from hell ! Amen !
Afterall, people don't go to hell whose sins are forgiven? OK? Otherwise Jesus and them are both being punished. That's double punishment !! That's evil (Prov 17:15).
Indeed, Jesus saves His people (only) from their sins (Mt 1:21)!
| 2004/11/30 6:52||Profile|
| Re: Hell: did Jesus die for those burning..?|
If it is 'particular redemption' you are referring to we chatted a little on the topic in a thread called Propitiation and the red heifer and a little in the thread called atonement
That is not intended to close down any discussion but simply to say we may have already made a start.
| 2004/11/30 9:24||Profile|
Not to over simplify all this, but it seems to me that the reccouring theme soteriologically is the presence or non-presence of the Holy Spirit in a persons life. Can we say that when the Holy Spirit departs the ashes metaphorically dry up and cease to have their effect on sin? This is caused by doing 'despite' unto the Spirit of Grace and in its finality is trodding under foot the blood of Christ as though it was dust (were ashes).
I am also reminded of the thread in which the concept of looking eye to eye (as it were) with God was dealt with. The conscience of a Sinner is such that they cannot look eye to eye. The relationship is faulty. The blood cleanses the conscience of those who desire to have the relationship restored. Those who have no desire to retain God in their knowledge would not accept the cleansing if offered. They don't want to walk with God. Sure God has sought reconciliation; but Jesus said it clearly, "Yet they would not that He should rule over them." This is the key as to why people are cast into Hell and really nothing more. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Luke 19:27)
BTW. The Red Heifer teaching is excellent if you have missed it.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/11/30 10:15||Profile|
[i]RobertW: Can we say that when the Holy Spirit departs the ashes metaphorically dry up and cease to have their effect on sin? [/i]
[b]Robert, are you saying that that what begins in the Spirit can be thwarted by the flesh? Wow.[/b]
Joh 10:28 And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
[i]RobertW: The blood cleanses the conscience of those who desire to have the relationship restored.[/i]
[b]Rob, are you saying that some people dead in their sins can seek after God? Incredible.[/b]
Rom 3:11 there is not one seeking God.
[i]RobertW: Sure God has sought reconciliation...[/i]
[b]Reconciliation is past tense, Rob. His people's sins were imputed to Christ at the cross![/b]
Rom 5:10 For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life;
[i]RobertW: "Yet they would not that He should rule over them." This is the key as to why people are cast into Hell and really nothing more.[/i]
[b]Rob, are you saying that God doesn't determine eternity? Amazing.[/b]
Rom 9:18 So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.
| 2004/11/30 18:03||Profile|
| Re: Hell: did Jesus die for those burning..?|
Hey anti, you seem to be stating the case for reformed theology? I put a question mark at the end of that sentence because, really Im asking if in fact you are of the reformed view a.k.a. Calvinism. Thank you and God Bless!
| 2004/11/30 19:49||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
Hey anti, you seem to be stating the case for reformed theology? I put a question mark at the end of that sentence because, really Im asking if in fact you are of the reformed view a.k.a. Calvinism.
I would have to agree. Personally I feel if we take a FULL view of scripture and just don't quote certain verses we can achieve a more balanced approach to this topic. Scripture clearly shows that Christ died for ALL (every man after adam). It also states in many cases that there are FEW who are to be saved. Also Scripture states that God desires ALL to be saved. But men have rebelled and forsaken God apart from His constant seeking.
Rob, are you saying that God doesn't determine eternity? Amazing
If God determined Eternity and choose who He wanted to spend Eternity with Him then that would be ridicilous plainly put. It's nothing more than a robotic fashion that God has setup then and made it so that only those He programmed to follow Him would while the rest of His creation goes to burn in an everlasting (eternal hell). Of course the Scripture does say that God chooses those who He hardens but thats in paticular cases and not for EVERYONE. God choose to harden Pharoahs heart for His glory and for Judas because He was predestined to perish that Scripture might be fulfilled. But if God choose the Eternity of every man then that contradicts the rest of Scripture and the Justice of God. You need to read the scriptures without man's interpreation and not just taking obscure texts drawing a conclusion. I am not saying that you have no knoweldge of Scripture and im not trying to undermine your witness dear brother but lets be reasonable there is so much in scripture towards our choice and God saying choose "death or life", the wonders of His grace in allowing us to choose, yield, submit to His wonderful purposes is something that still amazes me daily.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2004/11/30 20:58||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
Just as an example take the first part of the 15th Chapter of the Gospel according to Saint John:
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
"If ye abide"
"If ye keep my commandments"
Those 2 phrases clearly show that God puts an responsibility on His servants to willingly choose and obey Him, to reconize our new nature and be willing to allow the Spirit of God to work through our mortal bodies the issues of life.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2004/11/30 21:03||Profile|
Anyone not wanting to wade through the red heifer in our thread here can find it extracted into a pdf by Gary Sims on his mybiblebase.com site as The Red Heifer
| 2004/12/1 3:45||Profile|
| Re: Attn: sermonindex|
[i]---Sermonindex: Scripture clearly shows that Christ died for ALL.[/i]
[b] Sermonindex, are you saying that some *blood-bought* people burn eternally? [/b]
John 10:14,28 I lay down My life for the sheep
and I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never!
[i]---Sermonindex: Also Scripture states that God desires ALL to be saved.[/i]
[b] Sermonindex, are you stating that a husband should desire harlots in the same manner as he loves his wife?[/b]
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf...
[b]Why must a husband love all the harlots? He must love the harlots because his motto is God's motto (Eph5:25). If "God" desires ALL, husbands must say: Honey, I want you to know I love ALL the women in the world."[/b]
[i]---Sermonindex: If God determined Eternity and choose who He wanted to spend Eternity with Him then that would be ridicilous plainly put.[/i]
[b]Wow. There it is. Think about what sermonindex just said. Sermonindex believes that God is powerless. For Sermonindex, the eternal "God" does not determine eternity.
On the other hand, the Bible says that God has not only determined eternity but:[/b]
Eph 1:11 ALL THINGS according to the counsel of his own will.
[b]But to Sermonindex, thats[/b]
[i]ridiculous plainly put.[/i]
[b]For Sermonindex God does not determine. God does not choose.
Sermonindex says the eternal God does not determine eternity. [/b]
| 2004/12/1 8:10||Profile|
Initial arguments in this thread are not leading towards Reform theology, they were leading towards the reverse UNIVERSALISM This is a deadly trend that is even now trying to invade the Church!
Robert, are you saying that that what begins in the Spirit can be thwarted by the flesh? Wow.
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;. (Hebrews 3:7-13)
Rob, are you saying that some people dead in their sins can seek after God? Incredible
Your point of reference is all wrong. The Holy Spirit is constantly striving with man on this earth and sinful men are resisting. This was the message of Stephen in Acts 7. People cannot "always resist the Holy Ghost" unless He is "always striving." The Children of Israel resisted what God was constantly trying to do in drawing the near to God.
Perhaps you have resisted the Spirit of God. Perhaps you are in the habit of resisting the Spirit. You resist conviction. In preaching, when something has been said that reached your case, your heart has risen up against it and resisted. Many are willing to hear plain and searching preaching so long as they can apply it all to others; a misanthropic spirit makes them take a satisfaction in hearing others searched and rebuked; but if the truth touch them, they directly cry out that it is personal and abusive. Is this your case? (C.G.F.)
"If thou seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find Him, if thou seek Him with all thy heart and all thy soul." (Deuteronomy 4:29)
Reconciliation is past tense, Rob. His people's sins were imputed to Christ at the cross!
Friend, you are making arguments from the perspective of eternity; we live in real time.
in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, 'Be ye reconciled to God;' (II Corinthians 5:20)
Rob, are you saying that God doesn't determine eternity? Amazing.
To follow out the reasoning you propose here would be to indict God as the Father of lies. As Leonard Ravinhill said, "Were 1000 babies foreordained by God to go down the John last night?" That's Calvin 1000 times over.
Universalism is another refuge of lies. This system varies in some of its minor points, but in one great leading feature it remains ever the same--it always denies the justice of endless punishment. However much the advocates of Universalism may differ from each other in the less important points, they all agree that all men will ultimately be saved; that sin does not deserve an endless punishment; and that it would therefore be unjust in God to inflict it. (C.G.F. O.E. 1848).
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/12/1 8:12||Profile|