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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : US preacher warns end of the world is nigh: 21 May, around 6pm, to be precise

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MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Help!! let me out!! only needed to read 3 posts to see I did not belong here. carry on solders.


_________________
Bill

 2011/5/11 12:08Profile









 The Word and the Spirit agree...and WHO really knows??

The point?
by ccchhhrrriiisss............

"I have to wonder that IF those specific prophetic claims do not come to pass, will the person who made those claims wisely refrain from making such public claims in the future? Or will that person continue to make bold public claims based upon what they "think" is God's leading?

In the case of Harold Camping, we see a history of bogus claims. I would hope that he finally learns his lesson about making such claims. I also hope that, if he fails to do so, true believers will not support him.".............

Good one....and I also see a broader strategy....by inundating the public with a baptism of liars, kooks, and "prophetic" wizards..all in the Name of Jesus of course..there is subtly established that ALL of the prophetic gifting and the supernatural strength of the Church as also dubious.

Consider the backlash of Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner, and even Paul Cain....many were wounded, and in their pain and bewilderment, tossed the entire supernatural and the prophetic out with the bathwater.

The early church thrived upon prophetic power....and consider the Revelation of Jesus through John the Apostle....pure prophetic waters.

So, did God shut His mouth; go mute until His coming? Of course not...but Satan would have you believe that by parading these liars in front of us; and by their obvious hucksterism imply that all prophesy and prophetic people are birds of a feather.

Did you consider that Camping may have had a visitation by a demon, exhibiting himself as an angel of light? Many have; and it is REAL.....it may have really happened. If so, his pride [undealt with] could have convinced him that he heard straight from God...


So...Two things.

1.] You shall know them by their fruit.

2.] The Word and The Spirit AGREE!

The Bible says...Mark 13:31-33 (New King James Version)

31. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

No One Knows the Day or Hour!

32. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is."

So, Harold Camping is surely greater than all angels, and all mankind. He prophesied it.

See you on the 22nd.

 2011/5/11 13:19
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re: The Word and the Spirit agree...and WHO really knows??

Hi Brother Tom,

I agree that men like Harold Camping, Kim Clement, Benny Hinn and Todd Bentley are much more obvious in their deceit.

Like you said, we "know" them by their fruit. By the amount of specific dates and claims (or overtly ambiguous claims) that NEVER come to pass, we can obviously reject giving much weight to their words. Still, I think that many of these men are actually sincere with their words.

Some of them, I suppose, truly believe that their mouths are instruments of God. They are oblivious to the seriousness of their offense to the Truth in their endeavor to utter every "urge" that they feel in their souls -- which holds no more weight than the cultish Mormom "burning in the bosom."

Like you said, a false prophecy could be the result of a demonic influence. Yet, we are not supposed to be given to "false signs" or "lying wonders." We aren't even supposed to believe an angel if that angel presents a different Gospel (Galatians 1:8).

But, how are such individuals held accountable for their words? Should the Body of Christ permit individuals to make a "prophetic" proclamation that can't be fully substantiated by the Word of God?

Now, I have heard would-be "prophets" prophesy about the end of the world more times than I can count. They often mingle clearly understand things found n the Word of God regarding the End Times with subtle specificities.

The Word of God says that NONE of Samuel's words fell to the ground (I Samuel 3:19). He just didn't get things wrong. That is quite a contrast with most men who claim to operate within a "prophetic" gift.

Now, I am not saying that the gift of prophecy in the New Testament is the same establishment of a "prophet" in the Old Testament. However, the respect for GETTING IT RIGHT should be the same regardless of whether you lived under the Old or New Covenant.

This is the concern that I feel. Men are too quick to speak. They say things -- right or wrong -- that they suppose that God has given them. This is wonderful if God really did give them something to say. This is horrendous when God did NOT give them something to say. There is so much potential in our words -- for good or evil. Truth is truth...but a lie is still a lie even if it were uttered with the greatest of sincerity. This is why we must be VERY careful BEFORE we utter our words.

As for accountability...

So, what do we do when someone makes a claim that some event will happen by a certain date...says that GOD gave them this information...and it does NOT come to pass?

Should we expose those false words for what they are...lies? Do we just shrug our shoulders, admit that they obviously "missed" it, and just say, "To err is human?" Or is there some form of accountability for our words?

Should that person publicly confess their "error" with just as much gravity as they used when they uttered it in the first place?

Unfortunately (and like you said), the amount of phony bologna out there often serves to cause individuals to grow complacent when they hear ANYONE speak a prophetic word -- even if it is real. This is the great reason that we need real prophets to step forward and speak and others to just, well, be quiet. Of course, I believe that a real prophetic word holds quite a bit of weight in the I Corinthians 14 explanation of the gift.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/5/11 14:54Profile









 The freedom to prophesy, and the right and command to judge it.

"But, how are such individuals held accountable for their words?
Should the Body of Christ permit individuals to make a "prophetic" proclamation that can't be fully substantiated by the Word of God?"...ccchhhrrriiisss.

Consider the prophet Agabus in the Early Church....and consider the Apostolic prophesies of Peter, Paul, and John.
Consider the entire book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Much of it is so specific, it can only be hammered into existing scripture. Agabus prophesied about a coming famine. John claimed to see Jesus as God...and taken up in an amazing supernatural journey.

Paul prophesies of the coming falling away, evil days, perilous times, and the man of sin to be revealed, while directly prophesying an order of the events to come.....mostly unsubstantiated by the Word of God in a direct way.

On the other hand, the Word of God easily disproves Camping's date setting , by declaring that no man knows. In this sense, it is held up to the light of the word, and then disproved.

In the end, though, most of the church sets aside the gifts of discernment, by rejecting them, or belittling them. We have discernment, and a "bearing witness", that often bears witness with Peace, and the fruit of a particular man or woman, that trumps their vocalization.

"But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.

25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

Order in Church Meetings, and Prophesying.

26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

!!!Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. !!!

30. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.

31.!! For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

32. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. !!

I don't think that many , if any of these prophesies were substantiated by the Word of God...but discerned and judged by other prophetic people.

One command we can be sure of...1 Thess. 5......

"Do not quench the Spirit.

20. Do not despise prophecies.

21. Test all things; hold fast what is good."

By quenching the freedom to prophesy, it was as though you quenched the Holy Spirit.

All prophesy should be judged, not stopped. Neither God, nor His church has changed directions...but man has.







 2011/5/11 17:13
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re: The freedom to prophesy, and the right and command to judge it.

Hi BrotherTom,

The point that I am trying to make is NOT about whether or not real prophecy exists. I don't think that this is in question within the context of this thread.

The issue, at least in my mind, is about individuals who loosely speak "prophecy" that turns out to be false.

- What do you do with a person who proclaims a great tornado is going to destroy Los Angeles on May 21st...but it never happens?

- What do you do when a preacher uses God's money to proclaim the return of the Lord by a certain date...and it doesn't happen?

- What do you do when a person constantly and loudly utters ambiguous "prophecies" about coming events but fails to substantiate such things or provide proper perspective?

As a believer, I have been to plenty of meetings where "prophets" or other "gifted" ministers made all sorts of claims.

I have listened to a man who claimed to have raised hundreds of people from the dead in Mexico, talked with an evil 12 foot tall owl and claimed that the devil (invisible) physically chased him around a village (even opening and closing the gate as the devil ran).

I have seen men "prophesy" that a move of God was coming -- one in which people will all be "drunk in the spirit" and services will resemble bars where entire congregations will roll on the ground "drunk" under the spirit of God and will need "unsaved" designated drivers to take believers home.

I have listened to false prophets like Benny Hinn and Kim Clement utter specific nonsense -- including specific dates.

More often, I have heard people who think that they are prophets utter "words" that proved to either be false...or ambiguous enough to never see proven. I have seen the "Thus saith the Lord, you are worried about your loved ones" or "you are concerned about finances," etc... I have seen the same old tired specific prophecies to Church musicians about "healing the sick" and "casting out demons" when they play their instruments or sing. I could go on and on.

Now, these bad examples do not change the truth of prophecy in the New Testament Church as a gift. However, there seems to be many more phonies than the real deal.

Quote:

By quenching the freedom to prophesy, it was as though you quenched the Holy Spirit.



This is at the core of what I am trying to say. "Freedom to prophesy?" Which "freedom" are you speaking about? We should not prophesy because we are "free" to do so -- but because we cannot escape the Word of God on our lips! We should not be loose with our lips and attribute every thought as a "prophetic word" from God UNLESS there is NO DOUBT that it is so! It should be a fire that burns so deep within our souls that we cannot contain it -- that we MUST speak it!

Unfortunately, there are some who utter words that turn out to be false. Are they also "free" to utter those things without consequence? Who holds the would-be "prophet" accountable for their words if they turn out to be false?

This brings me back to the question: What do we do when someone makes a "prophetic" claim -- including a date -- and it does NOT happen? Are they "free" from any accountability and "free" to continue their practice in the future?

Interestingly, I think that many modern false prophets don't realize that they are false prophets...because they do believe that they are working for the Lord. Without some sort of accountability, they -- like Harold here -- will continue to utter such sincere lies in the future.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/5/11 17:52Profile









 No real church...and a law unto themselves....and the shepherd of God.

Ccchhhrrriiisss: I see your point crystal clear, and want to say that we are on the same page...and I will take a stab at an answer to the question below that may be at the heart of your dilemma............BT

....ccchhhrrriiisss said;..."Interestingly, I think that many modern false prophets don't realize that they are false prophets...because they do believe that they are working for the Lord.

Without some sort of accountability, they -- like Harold here -- will continue to utter such sincere lies in the future. "

I do not think there will ever be accountability in these issues, in the type of men you describe. This brings us to the root of the solution....and it has to do with AUTHORITY. Who has the authority to actually rebuke, or censor men like this....or any of the plethora of goof-balls, and Satanic deceivers.

Let us consider one of the more famous [ infamous ] christian deceivers in American history; Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church. He was somewhat of a witchy fellow, who practiced things like noodling for water with a forked stick, reading livers of animals, stuffed toads, seer stones, and the general accoutrement's of an occultic sorcerer.

He found his calling with the naive in his interpretation of Christianity...and considered himself the gate to all Christians entering Heaven. [ He got himself possessed, thus enhancing his intellect..]...and began to rewrite the bible, mixing in Masonic symbolism, and spoke of the angel Moron.....i. He began to accrue weak women too....over 40 of them, who he claimed to be divinely inspired wives. He even formed a rather large army for protection etc.

Where was the accountability in Smith's life? Non existent, except perhaps to the Devil himself. Accountability in the Kingdom only works in a local, Apostolic..[ not the denomination...] church, where the church Elders...Shepherds....oversee , feed and protect the local church from the wolf.

Thus, when a member is deceived, in rebellion, or participating in deep wickedness...[ see 2Corinthians]; the elders may act, and declare him excommunicated ...usually until repentance comes.

Those that are outside of the local church, or a tightly knit body with true Apostolic covering...are never subject to this authority....They are a law unto themselves...exactly like the wicked liar Smith.

So...we see varying degrees of deception and sin...and I liked your testimony of being through the mill...so to speak. Many may not believe it...but I do...for I have seen the same....bizarre as it may seem.

Extra-local Ministries do whatever, say whatever, and profit off whatever they can....brazenly...and will never give account to anyone...especially their Creator...Jesus.

Sadly...their are those that follow...and Nothing can be done, as I see it, except what we do....Expose it as we encounter it, for the sake of the weak and the lost.

Many know exactly who they serve...and do so with relish. Our job, as older brothers, or shepherds, must be to build a safe house for His children, and never stop proclaiming the Truth in love.

Acts 20-30..."Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears."

The heart of a man who loves God's children. The heart of a Shepherd.This we must faithfully perform, when the occasion arises.




 2011/5/11 22:56
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re: No real church...and a law unto themselves....and the shepherd of God.

Thanks BrotherTom,

I definitely understand your points. The Mormon cults are a perfect example of false prophecy turning into false doctrine and leading millions astray. Then, you have both the false prophets of this world who make claims about the dates, times and seasons of things (like Christ's return).

Still, I think that there are some others who are just as guilty...but aren't doing it from behind a pulpit, books of doctrine, false gospels or billboards. I have witnessed firsthand many believers who seem to WANT to be "prophets" (or identify as such because of what they feel to be spiritual rejection) who are just as incorrect with their words...albeit on a less-overt level. I can't pretend to know what motivates some of them -- but I do suspect that many of them are sincere (even to the point of believing that God did somehow give them those words).

I just wonder if there is a way to hold such individuals with "loose" words accountable for what they say.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/5/12 0:26Profile









 Re:

"I just wonder if there is a way to hold such individuals with "loose" words accountable for what they say."

Tough call. I'd say yes but where would we start?

DW had a few off ones - yet we respect his 'on' ones.

I'm as angry at the truely false-prophets as anyone but where do we begin and then 'how' do we act out this accountability?

I hold those that teach false doctrine - even if it's just 2% off JUST AS accountable as a false prophet. The New Testament holds both equally responsible.
I know no man on earth that is 100% innerant in his beliefs or teachings but to me - it's a question of discernment.

Harold Camping is both a false prophet and a false teacher and he's followed by many.

I believe that, to the degree it affects other's lives in a dangerous way - to that degree we Do hold them accountable.

We need to include "teaching" with "prophesying" - they're too much alike - as in - claiming to be the words of The LORD.

So, to the degree that "words" produce a spiritually dangerous misconception of GOD or His Ways or the way that men 'should go' - to that degree we hold them accountable. Oh Yes, Amen to that.

If what a person teaches or "predicts" doesn't affect your life in the slightest nor anyone else's - then just the test of time should teach them their own lesson - besides The LORD GOD Himself being the "convicter".

We must see teaching the same way that we see prophesying.

There are more false-teachers [that we won't/don't touch] than there are major-false-prophets.

I suppose this is about 'major and minors' as well or after all.

 2011/5/12 1:01
itg3712
Member



Joined: 2008/10/4
Posts: 67


 Re:

Quote:
Jesus said: Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming. (Matthew 25:13)



The day will come but no one knows the day and this includes Mr. Harold Camping who has sustained Family Radio for many years.


_________________
g

 2011/5/12 13:45Profile









 When it's refund time.....

I hate to be cynical; but I bet many of his faithful congregation..[ Radio and such] who believed him gave a bunch of their treasure to his ministry.

What use would it be to them on May 22nd?

He may be quite willing to be wrong, but will he be quite willing to refund their gifts?

Could be his strategy.

 2011/5/12 15:10





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