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 Re:

Quote:
Anonymous777 the word Ye and thou refer to either a plural or singular address respectfully. Can you please explain to me how the modern versions have altered the meaning of the passage Whitestone quoted at the start of this thread and turned the living word into a history book as you have quoted.



Yes, we see that the Angel was being addressed and the entire church of Smyrna was being included. But, if this alone was the application, then it would be a history book.

Using the plural pronoun YE is more faithful to the original text which used plural pronouns.

I am only saying that a little change here and a little change there, from version to version and eventually you have a history book, (in letter only), of course, that applies ONLY to people in the past. It becomes more of a struggle for the reader. Of course, only the Holy Spirit can really apply the Word of God to us personally, but we should not make the understanding of God's Word a struggle by changing or omitting meaningful words.

The King James translators correctly used these words because it is Biblical language that more accurately expresses the thoughts of God in inspired Scripture.

Not only does the King James Bible use "thy" and "thee" and "ye" but so also do Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishops' Bible, the Geneva Bible, John Wesley's New Testament, the Revised Version of 1881, Webster's translation, the American Standard Version 1901, the Jewish translations of 1917, 1936, the Douay version 1950, Young's, Darby's, the KJV 21st Century version and the Third Millenium Bible.

Even the RSV of 1952 and the NASB from 1960 to 1977 used "thee" and "thou" when addressing God in prayer, though the words "thee" and "thou" are not just used to show reverence for God, but rather express the second person singular of anyone, including the devil himself. The NASB, RSV both say in John 17:2 " THOU HAST given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom THOU HAST given him." But then in 1995 the NASB changed their texts again and now employ the generic "You". So were "thou" and "thee" not archaic in 1977, but then became so in the next few years?

Instead of "violating accuracy in translation", the fact is the use of such pronouns is FAR MORE accurate to the Hebrew and Greek languages than the generic "you" for both singular and plural.

Most languages have a singular and a plural form of the second person - the person being spoken to - "you". There is the singular "you" and then there is the plural, like "you all". This is found in the Hebrew and Greek languages as well as Spanish, French, Italian and many other world languages.

That is why "archaic" language is not always a bad thing?
They are actually more accurate than the modernized, generic "you" as found in the NKJV, NIV, NASB, Holman, and ESV?

The use of "thou" and "ye" may be "archaic" because we don't speak this way today, but it is far more accurate and reflects the Hebrew and the Greek languages that underlie the King James text. In fact, not even in 1611 did they speak this way. Read the preface to the KJB and you will see they did not use the "thee"s and "ye"s as they are found in the Scriptures.

The second person singular pronouns in English had largely passed from the language by the time of the writing of the AV. Thus it was "archaic" then as well. So getting rid of it because it is "archaic" is ridiculous, because it was archaic in the first place. The important thing is not whether the word is archaic (for goodness sake, they can look it up in a dictionary or ask someone else who knows) but whether the word is the correct translation. It is, so use it.


The popular NIV introduction erects a strawman argument and gives misleading information regarding the use of "thou" "thee" and "thine". On page xviii of my NIV Scofield edition, the editors state:

"As for the traditional pronouns "thou" "thee" and "thine" in reference to the Deity, the translators judged that to use these archaisms, along with the old verb forms such as "doest", "wouldest" and "hadst" would violate accuracy in translation. Neither Hebrew, Aramaic nor Greek uses special pronouns for the persons of the Godhead."

To put it kindly, this NIV introduction is pure baloney. First of all, the use of the words thou, thee, and thine are not used only in reference to Deity. They express the Hebrew and Greek singular "you" as opposed to the plural "you" which is rendered as "you", "ye" and "your". Thou, thee and thine are used not only when addressing God but also when speaking to the common man and even to the devil himself. "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get THEE hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Matthew 4:10.

Secondly, instead of "violating accuracy in translation", the fact is the use of such pronouns is FAR MORE accurate to the Hebrew and Greek languages than the generic "you" for both singular and plural.

In English this distinction is expressed by "Thou" meaning "you singular, and you alone" and "Ye" meaning "all of you, plural". This distinction makes a big difference in hundreds of passages in the Bible.

For instance, in Luke 22:31-32 the Lord says to Peter: "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have YOU, that he may sift YOU as wheat: But I have prayed for THEE, that THY faith fail not: and when THOU art converted, strengthen THY brethren."

Here the word YOU is plural in both the Greek and the English, meaning Satan was going to sift all of the disciples, "you all"; but Jesus is letting Peter know that He had prayed for him (thee) specifically as an individual.

In John chapter four, the Samaritan woman at the well is speaking to Jesus and says: "Sir, I perceive that THOU art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and YE say (all you Jews) that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

Then the Lord says to this individual: "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when YE shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. YE worship YE know not what: we know what we worship; for salvation is of the Jews." Here the YE means "all of you who are Samaritans", not just the individual woman to whom He was speaking.

One of many cases where a lot of confusion is caused by not following the "ye" and "thee" pattern is seen in Jeremiah 5:14. In Jeremiah 5:13-14 the Lord says: "And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them. Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because YE speak this word, behold, I will make my words in THY mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them."

God is referring to the false prophets when He says "because YE speak this word" but He is talking to Jeremiah, the true prophet, when He says "I will make my words in THY mouth fire".

The confusion is seen in such versions as the NKJV, NASB, NIV, ESV. The NKJV says: "Because YOU speak this word, Behold, I will make my words in YOUR mouth fire."

Another among many verses that are cleared up by recognizing this difference between Thee and You is found in Acts 13:34. Here Peter is preaching in a synagogue about Christ, the Son of God. Peter says: "And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give YOU the sure mercies of David."

If you neglect this distinction between Thee and You, one would naturally think God is saying to the risen Christ "I will give YOU the sure mercies of David." But He isn't referring to Christ. God is speaking to all HIS PEOPLE - YOU.

One more of hundreds of such examples that could be given shows this important distinction between "thee" (an individual) and "you" meaning "you all". The young shepherd David had gone out to meet Goliath the Philistine and he was speaking to one individual, the giant. David says to him: "THOU comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield, but I come to THEE in the name of the LORD..for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give YOU into our hands." David was not just telling Goliath that God would deliver him up, but ALL the Philistines as well - "you all".

A simple rule of thumb is if the word begins with a T, as in thou, thy, thee, and thine, then it is singular; and if it begins with a Y, as in you, your, and ye, then it is plural, meaning "you all".

In 2 Samuel 7:23 we read part of king David's prayer: "An what nation in the earth is like THY people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for YOU great things and terrible, for THY land, before THY people, which THOU redeemedst to THEE from Egypt."

Here David prays to God in the second person singular, but refers to the people of Israel as YOU. What confusion can result if this distinction in proper pronouns is removed? It could incorrectly be thought that David was praying in part to the nation, or that the land belonged to the people instead of to God.

Once you realize there is an important difference between "thou" and "ye" that exists in the English language as well as the Greek and Hebrew, then many passages are cleared up and more light is shed on the true meaning of the Holy Bible.

The King James Bible is more precise and accurate with its use of "thou" and "ye". When you "update and modernize" these "archaic" words to the generic "you", you do so at the expense of sacrificing an important distinction God has placed in His inspired words.

777







 2011/4/3 11:58









 Re:

I don't think not distinguishing between the plural you's and singular you's in the passages alters the meaning though. It says clearly the covenant is for Abraham AND his decendants.

God confused the lanuage of all the earth and scattered them over all the face of the earth in Babel. At Pentecost the Apostles were able to preach the gospel under the power of the holy spirit to Jews from every nation under heaven.

I have faith God has not now restricted himself to medieval English and Spanish.

 2011/4/3 12:12









 Re:

Of course, I understand. God does not care about the meanings of the words in His Word and is cool with the Bible changing with the vernacular of the changing times and culture. Makes complete sense to me.

Can't wait for the "Text Message" Bible. OMG, LOL

I think I would rather learn the few "archaic" words than have to go to night school to learn "gangster" and "rap" language.

Did you know that OMG and LOL were officially entered into Webster's Dictionary this year.

Are these really ridiculous statements in light of the Bibles we have today? Green Bible, Inclusive Bible, Homosexual friendly Bible, Gender Neutral Bible, PETA wants an Animal Friendly Bible, ad nauseum.

 2011/4/3 12:26









 Re:

Anonymous777,

You are confusing two separate issues:

Q) Does the use of 'you' in the passage make us think it is addressed to only one person ( the historical thee)?

A) No, because although he says the message is to the angel of the Smyrna (one person or being, I imagine a heavenly angel personally here), the passage written indicates more than one person.

ie " some of you" will be thrown into prison.

"whoever conquer will not be harmed"

Q) Should the you be correctly translated as "you all"?

A) It could be, but 'you' can be used as a singular or plural address, depending on the context in which it is used.

Q) So does the use of "Ye" make the passage refer to " all saints" more than the 'inferred' plural 'you' used instead?

A) No, the word 'Ye' does not have any special spiritual properties in itself. It would depend rather on their method of interpretation. Personally I see scripture as having a real historical context.

Eg Every time Jesus addressed a crowd as "Ye" although the message is often meant to be applied to all of us, he historically was addressing a group of real people in real history.










 2011/4/3 13:05









 Re:

I stated this:

"Here the word YOU is plural in both the Greek and the English, meaning Satan was going to sift all of the disciples, "you all"; but Jesus is letting Peter know that He had prayed for him (thee) specifically as an individual. "

You and Ye are plural.

 2011/4/3 13:15









 Re:

Before we look at another passage, it may be helpful to finish our discussion on the original one brought up at the start of the thread. What is your response to my last post?

 2011/4/3 13:28









 Re:

I believe that the Holy Spirit is addressing the entire Church down through the ages when "ye" is used.

Or addressing all Pharisees down through the ages when "ye" is used.

 2011/4/3 15:07









 Re: 8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, w



Just for the record, here is the letter to the church at Smyrna from the KJV (AV) King James Version = Authorised Version (because its production had been 'authorised' by King James I and VI).


Revelation 2
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Interesting. It is almost as if Jesus is speaking to the church as if it is one man - one lampstand - represented by the messenger.

This would go well with Ephesians 4: 1 - 16.

 2011/4/3 15:27









 Re:

Quote:
Interesting. It is almost as if Jesus is speaking to the church as if it is one man - one lampstand - represented by the messenger.



I will demonstrate later how the lack of "ye" and "thee" can alter doctrine.

They are special words!

Right now, got a 4 hour drive ahead of me.

777

 2011/4/3 15:47









 Re:

Ok I understand what you mean now. You can used as a plural in KJB, whereas we use it now as a singular and plural address.

I agree that it makes it clearer where it addressed the Smyrna church as a singular unit through the angel, and where it referred to the you and Ye plural members of the church.

I still don't see how you have jumped from Ye referring to more than one person, to it meaning the entire church throughout history.

You and Ye ate both 2nd person plurals, eg like 'I' is to 'me'. The use depends on the context of the sentence.

How has ye moved to referring to 'the entire church throughout history, when the you's in modern versions ( which I have demonstrated is also a plural in this case), has made the modern versions like history books?






 2011/4/3 16:30





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