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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Alive-to-God,

Quote:

This is an assumption on your part.



An assumption? Not by the strict definition of that word. An opinion? That is exactly what I called my statement.

Quote:

You have had little idea of how people arrive at preferring the KJV - only that you disagree with them.



Actually, I have a pretty good idea how KJV-only advocates arrived to their opinions (for their conclusions are also just opinions) WHEN they have explained their reasons in this thread...or in books and websites that detail their reasons.

Quote:

If we depended on your method, we would all be reading the NIV more often. But we're not. We reached a decision a different way, (most likely), and we're comfortable with that. (People use websites because it's quicker and cheaper to get a quote, not because we haven't read books.)



I don't think that is accurate. I am not asking people to use "my" method. I am asking people to refrain from ABSOLUTE DECLARATIONS until they are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN. And, no, I do NOT think that it is enough to trust in the words and teachings of men on this subject. Simply looking at some KJV-only websites is no more "research" than if I went to some other controversial website and then declare the views of those who created the websites as "truth."

I am not saying that people should refrain from those websites (not at all). I am saying that people should not just accept what those websites teach or conclude...or that the secondhand claims contained within those sites should not be presented as "evidence" for such conclusions -- particularly if those things have not been tested and verified for accuracy.

Quote:

As for your well-proclaimed suspension of choice, are you aware this is a modern exercise in Pyrrhonism.



Actually, that is an utterly RIDICULOUS thing to claim about what I am saying! Pyrrhonism teaches that there are no absolutes...no truths...and that no certainty can ever be ascertained.

That is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I am doing. It is unwise for you to make such a absurd accusation too -- especially after I clarified in detail what I am saying several times.

I have NEVER claimed that there are no truths. I am just questioning the logic of making absolute declarations in a matter when the weight of evidence is faulty (at best) or in which there are so many honest, sincere believers and trained experts in this matter who hold a very different view.

Do you think that the KJV is the ONLY acceptable version of the Word of God...and the only one that is 100% correct...so much so that your claims leave no room for doubt or human error?

You see, the only truth that we can be sure of is the Word of God itself. Unfortunately, that means that an issue about the supremacy of the translation of one version over all others just can't be determined by looking at the text of the Word itself in one version (like the KJV). It must be researched.

Unfortunately, I am finding that the people who are the loudest and most vocal proponents of the KJV-only opinion are also the ones who seem to know the least about actual textual criticism, the history of manuscripts, the etymology of ancient Greek, and the actual study of the writings and claims of everyone from Erasmus to Westcott/Hort to the modern translators involved in good academic versions of God's Word (like the NASB and NIV). Many have even boasted about being so "common" that they have limited their research or place little faith in "experts" or "scholars" (other than the ones that share their views). Yes, this is my own observation...even from the testimony of some individuals within this thread.

How is it that men can claim that the KJV is the ONLY acceptable version of the Word of God if it is based upon so little tangible evidence? How is it that men are so certain of their opinion -- enough to claim other versions are "devilish" -- even thought they haven't studied the matter beyond a few biased books and websites or verified the actual "evidence" within those claims? How is it that men will scrutinize and attack other versions (even by verse-by-verse comparisons), translators and sources -- but refuse to apply that same level of criticism, skepticism and scrutiny toward the KJV, its translators or its sources?

Do you see what I am saying? Are we really supposed to be so easily convinced of such things?

Quote:

Are you happy about that, despite it being opposed to Paul's exhortations away from worldly wisdom? Maybe you can be comfortable with it for yourself, but I do have a problem with your insistence that the rest of us should adopt it. (It was revived by Montaigne, and used by Erasmus under pressure from the Catholic Church to dampen his ardour for internal reform.) As you have repeated your adherence to not stating absolutes many times in this thread, I feel free to mention it. I see it as a different matter completely, from a group of translators scrapping over which words to use in a sentence. In fact, they made decisions.



Again, your accusation is without merit. I am not opposed to absolutes. However, I am opposed to someone claiming that their opinion is an "absolute" -- to the point that they will spew vile statements on other faithful versions of the Word of God, their translators or their sources.

Quote:

If you were honestly happy about everyone working out their own salvation as the Lord leads them, would it bother you that some people don't have an NIV, or don't want one, and find it unnecessary to contact translators before making their decision? Or do you genuinely believe we are missing a greater joy, and simply conclude we must be operating sloppy logic and unscholarliness? All the best academic minds in the world, with no unction from the Holy Ghost, will degrade the word of God without even trying.



I don't even understand the basis for your question. First of all, I don't like it when someone questions whether or not I am "honestly happy" about such a thing. It can be viewed as a subtle insinuation posed in the form of a question.

And, of course I am not bothered if someone doesn't use or embrace the NIV! At the same time, I am not bothered if someone doesn't use or embrace other versions of God's Word -- such as the NASB, KJV or other credible translations that were honest and scholarly in their attempts.

However, it does bother me when someone is willing to spew all sort of accusations and claims about the NIV, its translators, its translators beliefs, or its sources but having refused to contact those Bible societies and translators in the first place. It is akin to "spiritual gossip" when we refuse to validate our own claims enough to go to the sources -- even about something as important as a discussion of acceptable versions of the Word of God.

Yes, academic minds without the Holy Ghost lack the power of God to work. However, the problem of your statement is in an underlying belief that the translators of the KJV -- some who held heretical "high church" views -- were somehow more attuned to the Holy Spirit than the translators or versions like the NIV and NASB. And, more perplexing, is that someone could make such a claim if they never contacted those translators of the NIV or read the views, thoughts and writings of the translators of the KJV (or Erasmus)either.

Is it "blind faith" to trust those translators...or is it just "blind?" After all, we are instructed by God to TEST EVERYTHING (I Thessalonians 5:21). Believers should welcome that desire to prove their words, claims and opinions. No one should be fearful if their views are put to the test. While we must first test by the Word of God, we can also test the claims of others (when they make claims about the translators, sources, manuscripts, etc...).

Quote:

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


To some of us, it is plain that this is happening...



I don't understand the context of what you are saying. What are you saying this in reference to? All versions other than the KJV?

Quote:

Yet your only repost to those who are concerned, is that it's because they're based on a different set of manuscripts. While very relevant from one point of view, it is probably less relevant than whether or not God was being heard during the process.



You are incorrect in saying that this is my "only repost to those who are concerned." I have stated explicitly -- time and time again -- what my concerns are and why they concern me. It isn't just about the manuscripts -- but that those who are making the argument in the first place (of the total supremacy of the KJV over all other versions -- or the utter devilish nature of all other versions). They are making a BOLD claim (voiced not as an opinion, but as "absolute truth"). So, are we supposed to just let them make their claims -- even if we perceive much of those thing (after honest research) to be utterly false or misleading?

At the same time, I could turn that same argument around and easily use it against the claims of KJV-only advocates. I could ask them to explain why they embrace the KJV as the only acceptable version of the Word of God. Do you think that they could "prove" it? Should I counter every claim they make and dismiss the need to rely upon the "research" of the so-called experts upon which those claims are based? It is not just the manuscripts, Alive. It is the fact that many of the "experts" quoted by the KJV-only websites and books are not only standing outside of the realm of peer-reviewed scrutiny, but that many of them also base their premises upon the claims of one another (rather than actual firsthand anecdotes, examples or proof texts).

Moreover, you are accepting that all of the translators of the KJV were attuned to the Spirit of God. Were all of the KJV translators even saved? Was Erasmus a true believer? If you assume that the answer is "yes," then how do you know this to be true? Because your spirit bears witness? This is the same rationale that some men and women follow phony preachers and false doctrines today. So how do we "test" such things?

How would you know that Erasmus, Lancelot Andrewes and the other translators were pious unless we have actually studied their lives and writings? Do we believe it because someone else told us it is so? After all, I know some people who think that Benny Hinn is the bees knees -- but I won't be sending him a "love offering" anytime soon.

You see, there are things that we can test and verify in regard to the claims of KJV-only advocates (regardless of whether it is FOR the supremacy of the KJV or attacks and accusations about other versions, translators and sources). We can easily read firsthand accounts. We can easily contact translators and ancient text/ancient language experts. We can do much more than take someone else's research as "truth."

Quote:

WE have all been given the Holy Spirit to know the truth when we find it. This is how anyone 'chooses' to stay with the KJV, or CHANGE to the KJV, from another translation - which respectable people do do. No pressure on you while you're finding loads of truth in the NIV. That's great!



Thanks. At the same time, many respectable and sincere believers also prayerfully have moved from the KJV to versions like the NIV and NASB. I am one of them. I know quite a few others too -- including many longtime members here on SermonIndex. :-)

Quote:

I am struggling to put something into words here, and I realise if you are taking the words at face value you can easily knock them down intellectually. But I'm trying to convey something spiritual. It's again that from some translations the love of God shines through palpably more than others.



I understand your concern. But let me make it clear: Regardless of my education or degrees (which I count as dung anyway) or the time and research that I have spent in regard to this...I am not looking to knock down things intellectually. Just because I may have an advanced education or have spent more time in researching this matter (or not), it isn't right to assume that I am missing the "spiritual" matter that is the essence of it all. In fact, that is EXACTLY what I am trying to make as an emphasis.

I think that no one is spiritually entitled to come into SermonIndex and declare as an absolute certainty that the KJV is the only acceptable (or "holy") version of God's Word than some other believer would be entitled to pronounce some obscure doctrine to be true....or that the world is flat. It isn't "spiritual" to make absolute claims things that are just opinion. A KJV-only advocate is no more "spiritual" in their attempt to declare their opinion as beyond all uncertainty than a Calvinist to declare their view as supreme and all others are believing lies (or vice versa). There is nothing "spiritual" about that.

And, by the way, I feel the love of God via the NIV just as much as I have from the KJV and NASB.

Quote:

If this is the case, and we are all equally dependent on the Holy Spirit for what we do 'know', then why does it bother you soo much that God has led some of us to prefer the way He communicates Himself through the KJV? You have given literally hours to writing the same things again and again, which don't make any difference to our opinions. As you have clearly stated, you are offering an 'opinion'. So are the rest of us. Isn't that fair?



Yes, it is fair to regard all that any of us post to be "opinions." I do think that it is interesting that you are calling me out for "given literally hours to writing the same things again and again" (even when you seem to have missed some of the things that I wrote in this very post that I am replying to)...but the same caution isn't urged to the guy who registered to our forum a few days ago and spent time belittling me and others in his attempt to proclaim his KJV-only views as absolute truth (and not mere "opinions").

Do you see the difference?

I do appreciate all of those who have privately contacted me with words of encouragement into this matter. For a while there, I thought that my words were totally misunderstood. The encouragement is much appreciated. Thank you.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/3/31 23:25Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Brothers, sister, small farm animials...

I love you all. I read the NKJV. It works great for me.

Just thought I'd share. blessings!


_________________
Christiaan

 2011/3/31 23:27Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi rbanks...

Thank you for your post.

I will say this: If I had seen anything that made me to believe that the KJV was superior to all other translations, I would use it exclusively.

However, after much prayer, study and research (including considering the claims of KJV-only advocates) -- I haven't found anything that would make me believe that the KJV-only position is correct.

As for the texts to the point of the 1611 manuscript (and subsequent revisions over an additional 168 years): There were thousands of manuscripts that weren't in total agreement. I am not talking Alexandrian v. Byzantine v. Western text-types. I am talking about the Byzantine text-type exclusively. If God "preserved" that text line...and that text line alone...why did he wait 1500 years for a Catholic humanist (Erasmus) to decide for everyone which texts from the various manuscripts were correct? Why did they wait for another 100 years for a group of Church of England translators to determine which words and phrases Erasmus got right...and which words and phrases that the other texts that were consulted was right?

As I said before, I still "prefer" the KJV as a great translation taken from its sources. However, I use it alongside the NASB and NIV as good, honest translations taken from their sources (many of which were the same as the ones consulted for the KJV, NASB and NIV).

I do believe that God is using all of those translations of His Word.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/3/31 23:34Profile
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

King Jimmy,
I'm still waiting for:

Quote:
There seems to be little differnce in the variance. Right? Refresh my Greek. What is the reference?


http://www.iamadisciple.com/articles/papers/Bible-Variants.jpg

Unless I missed it somewhere in this set of "Modern Church Fathers". :)


_________________
James

 2011/4/1 0:05Profile
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

Quote:
Psalms 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.



I still believe His Word is inspired, infallible, and inerrant.
Quote:
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Quote:
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Quote:
Psalm 19:7-9 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.



We can debate about manuscripts, but His Word lives on! He changes lives. Hallelujah!


_________________
James

 2011/4/1 0:22Profile









 Re:

post removed.

 2011/4/1 0:32









 Public apology

anon 777, and to anyone i might have offended, i beg you in the Lord, please forgive any intemperate verbiage on my part regarding this issue.

my default setting in Jesus Christ, is that His Grace, His Love be on you all, that is my constant prayer.

i'm just thankful to God that Bible ownership in this land is still legal, because i see a day, when earthly powers and authorities in America, make Bible ownership illegal.

Many say i'm "crazy"...in fact, nobody agrees with me on this, but i did not recieve this revelation from my imagination, mind, or man, but from Jesus Who lives in me.


and i welcome that day, because the devil, as always, OVERSTEPS his foul schemes, and the day, worldly powers pull this....you watch, the Church will become so vibrant and strong in this land.

Bibles will once again become so Precious ....to many.

my many Bibles, are so Precious to me, and this poster, and if it seems like i'm boasting, i boast in the LORD, has a beautiful, perfectly servicable 1834 KJV's New Testament....my guess is that is was a farm wive's NT, she signed her name on the cover, and you can actually see splashes of what may be stew on a few pages, as she might have read while having supper. i have KJV's, NKJV's, ESV's, NIV's and i have a English/Korean Bible (side by side translation, as i read, write and speak Korean)

i've read them all, but if i just "read to read", it is nothing to my soul. During my morning devotional readings, i always ask God the Holy Ghost to open the eyes of my heart, fore This Word is spiritual Food, and It is precious.

Now, to that end, i will be moving, God willing, soon, to the Amish areas of Wis. i'm here now, putting an offer down on a small farmette, Praise God! i have it in my soul to buy about 100 hard cover "pew" Bibles...for two reasons, one, in prep of what i've seen, and to bless and evangelize my Amish brothers, meaning their Bible is in a very old dialect of German, that NONE of them can read.

and God willing, that will change, as i do His Work. The place i'm buying was built by Amish, i need some more work done on it, and believe me, once they realize, i'm not just some secular "English", i will more than happy to give them a Bible, or three. For this, they could actually get excommunicated, shunned, for the act of reading an "english" Bible. Yesterday, i was driving a lonely country road, and i saw an Amish brother walking home on the other way, and God said to me, "see neil?...if you had those Bibles, you would flip around and see if the brother needed a ride, engage in conversation, and possibly give him a Bible"......to which i praised God, and said "thank You Father!"

forgive my blithering, but i wanted to share whats in my heart, and to beg forgiveness for seeming to be of a hard heart, fore my only desire is to bear the Sweet Fragrance of Messiah, whether it be on a country road, or a website i dearly love......and frankly, i dont always succeed, to my grief.

so, if Led, just get on your knees and see if my foresight, meaning Bible ownership being made illegal is true, if so, start buying and stocking Them NOW!!!

in Jesus' love, neil

 2011/4/1 11:16









 Re: Public apology

I thought the Amish were anabaptist type protestants. I saw another post also about evanglising them. What is the situation with this?

 2011/4/1 12:10









 Re:

Hi Neil,

I don't need to forgive you, because I tell you in truth, I was not offended, but am deeply sorry if I offended you.

I do agree that it is a good idea to have a few bibles hidden. That is not as crazy as some people may think. It will be outlawed for any number of reasons that the "authorities" decide to latch onto.

The greatest sign of the End Times are not earthquakes, tsunamis, political upheaval or such, but a little spoken about phrase often overlooked, in Matt 24:12. The Love of Many shall wax cold.

This has been a sign of apostasy for some time now, regardless of all the natural disasters.

May we all keep ourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto etenal life.
Jude 1:21.

May the Lord bless you abundantly and others up there in Amish land.

777

 2011/4/1 12:31
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

andie,
They were and some still are. Some (Amish, Mennonite,etc.) still hold to an orthodox Christian faith. Many others have just a form and no longer believe in justification by faith. Also, many do not realize that there are many branches of the Amish, just like the rest of protestantism.


_________________
James

 2011/4/1 13:01Profile





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