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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : For some Christians, King James is the only Bible

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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi JB1968...

Quote:

Alot to weed through. Have been busy, but I was wanting to know your opinion, rather than the experts. You seem to think that both are good reliable texts, and one is not necessarily superior to the other. Is this right?



My opinion is first and foremost that most people who are heavily engaged in this topic just don't know what the experts think about this...but only the innuendos that many KJV-only books and websites have made about what those experts think.

Instead of relying on what others SAY that those sources think of the matter, we should go to them and ask (whenever possible) or read their own works firsthand.

As for my opinions:

I think that the source texts are simply what they are -- source texts. Erasmus had a limited selection of later Byzantine Greek texts that came from what is now described as the Byzantine text-type. He didn't even have an entire version of the New Testament. He did the best that he could with the texts that were available to him.

About a hundred years later, the translators of the KJV relied heavily -- but NOT exclusively -- upon Erasmus's translation of those many Byzantine text-type manuscripts. However, they consulted other versions and translations too (including some in other languages). They also consulted other texts as well. Sometimes, the translators had a tough job when deciding upon certain phrases and words. Those translators did not always agree, but reached a consensus according to their responsibility within the text. I feel that those KJV translators did the best that they could with the texts that were available to them == and they explained what their conclusions in the preface to the original 1611 editions.

Most scholars today have even older manuscripts available - many of which were written in the actual New Testament language of Koine Greek. The vast majority of scholars and translators prefer many of those manuscripts over the later Byzantine text-type manuscripts for diverse reasons (that I mentioned previously...especially a belief that the later Byzantine texts were actually derived from the older Alexandrian texts) -- but they consulted those Byzantine texts nonetheless.

So, my ultimate conclusion in the matter is that I simply understand the various views on the matter. There is no "war" between the translators of the KJV and others. There is no war between Byzantine text-type versus Alexandrian text-type. There was no conspiracy by translators of the NIV or NASB to "change" or "omit" words from the KJV. Those translators simply wanted to create a modern translation in today's English from the best sources available today. Nothing more. Nothing less. The only "war" that seems to exist appears to be the one that is loudly proclaimed by the more adamant KJV-only advocates.

My conclusion, so to speak, is quite simple.

I cannot claim with absolute authority the supremacy of one version, translation, set of texts or set of manuscripts as inarguably superior to all others.

I also feel a need to question the rationale, logic, "evidence" and "research" of those who feel the need to wage their very public war on other translations that are not the KJV. I have no problem with those who feel the KJV is superior, better or even those who would believe it to be the only "perfect" edition of God's Word. However, I do have a problem when they feel that they must loudly proclaim -- without any doubt in their words -- that all other views are "unholy," "devilish," or part of some Satanic conspiracy.

Why even discuss this?

In the past nearly eight years that I have been a part of SermonIndex, we have occasionally had brethren who felt so strongly opinionated about a particular subject that they would announce it to be the only acceptable or Biblical opinion.

Like I said before, there is a need for the preaching of Biblical truth. However, I think that our understanding of "truth" is sometimes skewed. This leads to disputes when individuals proclaim certain sectarian views as the only ones worth considering. Sometimes, any questioning of the presented opinion is met with hostility -- even if the "testing" of those teachings are done in honesty and humility. People argue over music, calvinism (or its alternatives), the extent of the gifts of the Spirit, eschatology, Bible prophecy, particular measures of modesty, politics and, of course, the most correct Bible version(s).

I think that all of these things are perfectly acceptable things that can and, if necessary, should be discussed. However, I think that we need to be very careful about making loud proclamations of one particular view as "truth." I mean, we aren't talking about undeniable doctrines of the faith. We are talking about sectarian views that are chronically discussed...and argued...and discussed...and argued over and over again.

In this case, I do not believe that a person should enter a public forum like this and proclaim the KJV to be the ONLY acceptable version of the Bible. They may believe it. They may base their belief on whatever research that they base the belief upon. However, it just isn't necessary to proclaim it in a manner as if it were beyond dispute. Moreover, no one should become upset if their claims, evidence and research are tested and scrutinized. In fact, we should WELCOME it when anyone wants to test the evidence upon which we personally arrived to our opinions. After all, others may be equipped to help us in our never-ending search for the truth in such matters.

Anyway, I digress (and apologize). I didn't mean to write another long post. I just hope that you understand where I am coming from. Thank you for your prayers.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/3/31 14:10Profile









 Re:

**UPDATE**

Chris, are you a Bible Agnostic? Just asking. A lot of Christians today don't believe in the Inerrant Word of God.

It may not be wise in your estimation to declare absolutes, however, my all-wise Father declares absolutes about His Word being pure and preserved. It is downright foolish, to not believe that God can preserve, His inerrant Word to us. Your philosophy of all of this in my opinion is ever shifting sand depending on the latest translator.

Here is an absolute for you. Modern Bible Versions will continue to change!

I don't put much stock in education when it changes "corrupt the Word of God" to "peddle the word of God". In the Greek that underlines the KJV, it is corrupt, adulterate, not peddle.

The Publishers peddle the word for $$$$$ and the corruption continues to take place for $$$$$. Sell, sell, sell.

2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

These Modern Versions of the Bible are "strangers" to me and many that know the voice of the Father and how He speaks about His Son. He does not communicate this way. His voice is changing and many of us recognize the change. It is the voice of someone else.

The image of Jesus as God Incarnate, the Christ, the Holy One of God and ONLY Son of God, are slowly being removed.

Yes, all of these most important descriptive words of Jesus. The Cross, the Centrality of the Christian Life and the Blood that was shed for us, by our loving Saviour, whose very title of Saviour is even being removed along with Cross and Blood.

Sure, you can still recognize Jesus in some of today's modern versions, but you have no assurance that the Textual Criticism and tampering with God's Word by the "educated, scholars" is going to cease. Do you? Do you, Chris. You cannot say absolutely will complete assurance that God's Word which you love, will stop changing. That is sad.

All you need now is a tiny preposition to be removed and you will not have "the Savior", but "a Savior", not "the God" but "a god". Welcome to Satan's One World Order and Religion.

If what has happened in our present day modern Bible versions is any indication, then that is where we are heading brothers and sisters. Our Bibles will finally be pleasing to the world.

The KJV contains the TRUTH of God and it will become anathema to the religious world that is embracing the spirit of this age which is being reflected in Modern Bible versions. They will say it is intolerant and hateful and why don't you use this modern version or that one. They will try to eradicate all hateful books and chief on the list will be the KJV. The KJV will not be hated because it has some archaic words in it, it will be hated because it exalts Jesus Christ, His Blood, His Cross, and His Incarnation.

And WHO do you really think is behind all of this?

Some of you need a couple more Bible revisions to really see the light. My fear is that as the spirit of the age/world infiltrates translation committees that the same spirit of the age will be influencing Christians at the same speed, along the way. And in that way, the "Christian" will never really notice the glaring corruption of their new bible versions. They will be walking in lockstep with the spirit of the age that is also influencing mere men, on committees. And they will think that the new Bibles are becoming more "relevant".

The all important question to ask yourself is this: Are you a Bible Believer or a Bible Agnostic?

May God be pleased to open the blind eyes and grant His gift of faith to believe the greatest Book on the earth, the Authorized King James Holy Bible.

Accepted in the Beloved, - Ephesians 1:6, (not bestowed upon)

Thank you Jesus that we are Accepted in the Beloved.


Inerrancy of Scriptures:
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398


Rebuttal to James White's "The King James Only Controversy".

This is another rebuttal by George R. Theiss.
http://www.tulipgems.com/WhichBible5.htm

Gail Riplinger has her own rebuttal on her site and in printed form that you can get at www.avpublications.com.

James White's critique is here:
http://www.avpublications.com/avnew/content/Critiqued/CriticsCritiqued.html

I encourage you to read James White's critique, also.

www.aomin.org

 2011/3/31 14:29
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Quote:

Chris, are you a Bible Agnostic?



That is uncalled for.

Please refrain from such incendiary language. And, please refrain from repeatedly putting words in my mouth.

I do believe that God has eternally preserved His Word -- but it isn't called the King James Version. It existed for the approximate 1600 years before the KJV was completed. In fact, God's Word is eternal.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men." John 1:1-4


_________________
Christopher

 2011/3/31 14:46Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Chris, are you a Bible Agnostic?




i will EXULT when the moderators finally step in and shut down this unfruitful, unprofitable, divise and unseemly thread.

 2011/3/31 14:47
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

Chris,
I understand how you came to your conclusions. I just wanted to know your own view, rather than the experts. Discussions like these can be good if every one can think sensibly, and if need be "agree to disagree".
Thanks,
JB


_________________
James

 2011/3/31 14:51Profile









 Re:

Bible Agnostic is not incendiary. You are getting melodramatic again. It means, you don't necessarily know if the Word is inerrant or not today.

Let me rephrase.

Is God mighty enough to preserve His inerrant Word and deliver it to us today? And has He? Which version is it?

If your answer is No, thank you, I have no further comments.

 2011/3/31 14:52
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

It is uncalled for.

Quote:
That is uncalled for.


Quote:
Please refrain from such incendiary language. And, please refrain from repeatedly putting words in my mouth.


Quote:
I do believe that God has eternally preserved His Word -- but it isn't called the King James Version. It existed for the approximate 1600 years before the KJV was completed. In fact, God's Word is eternal.



In this case Chris is right. God's Word is eternal. It was originally written in Hebrew and Greek. English, Spanish, Swazi, and what have you are all translations. But God preserves His Word in each language. That is the mystery of it all. The Bible IS the written Word of God, not just containing the Word of God.


_________________
James

 2011/3/31 14:58Profile









 Re:

so full of fleshly pride and tightly wrapped religion.

I AM GETTING SO SICK OF RELIGION, "religion" has NOTHING to do with God, with Faith, with Jesus Messiah and Him crucified.

NOTHING!

i see stuff like i'm going to quote and i see the same poisonous, tightly wrapped religiousity that propels islamic jihadi's to kill each other. the only reason some of yall dont do that, is one, you'll go to jail, and two, you aint got no stones, hiding behind a computer keyboard.

Quote:
This is important, really. It has been said that the battleground for truth is the bloodiest battle ever fought and has lasted the longest of every other battle-it's still going on today!



yeh! "really".

Quote:
We're not fighting one another; we're fighting for the truth.



bovine scat, you're fighting one another, dont attach such noble motives to this cyber scat.

Quote:
If you want to settle for an average Christian life, then choose an average Bible.



just garbage. moderators, dont you think its time to put this sad spectacle out of its misery?



 2011/3/31 15:02









 Re:

Yes, JB, that is the mystery of it all.

My apologies to Chris in particular if Bible Agnostic was offensive. It would not have been to me. It is a short way of asking what your views are on inerrancy, but obviously it was a bad choice of words.

Apologies to all if this was offensive to anyone else, also.

 2011/3/31 15:04









 Re:

i read, eat of the ESV, anonymous 777...you got a problem with that?

anything slanderous, accusatory you want to tar me with?

 2011/3/31 15:05





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