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 excuse me?

"ratchet down"?

my responsibility is to call out sin in high places, NOT to give it a covering as is your wont sir. I didnt like the way you spoke to me before, and I don't like it now. Your not speaking to some errant step child. This war is depraved sin, and you seem unable to face that fact.

 2004/11/20 20:23

Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777

 Re: excuse me?

Please stay on topic Neilgin. The topic is about encouraging our Christian brothers and sisters involved in the political arena to follow through. Please don't hijack the thread.

I was not trying to offend you. If you still feel offended then please PM me and we can work out our differences in private.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey

Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/11/20 20:30Profile

Joined: 2004/11/18
Posts: 54
Southwest Missouri

 Value Voters: Visiting or Vigilant?

Shalom, Neil ... I want to extend to you GOD's blessings as another Believer. However, Neil, your harsh and hectic words do not resonate with my heart. You challenge President Bush's integrity as a Believer with your inciteful words, "Bad fruit can't come from a good tree." Yes, that is true both in Scripture and in first year law school classes. However, you do not make a compelling case that those words apply to President Bush. Neil, some of us actually know President Bush, not about him, or read of him, but actually know him personally. Neil, some of us who are Republicans and even democrats not only say we are strict, straight and strong for the sanctity of GOD-given life, but are inside the circles of influence making sure that those planks of the platform are not removed (or restored). Neil, some of us recognize that even in our own lives we are not "living where we should live." Some of us, Neil, respond in the process of tshuvah (repentance - a turning from sin and a turning toward GOD)trusting that GOD's Grace is Greater than our Greatest sin. As a Jew, I can tell you that I am glad that many Believers both fought and are fighting, support and are supporting the War on Terrorism. Sadly, not enough Believers stepped up to the battle to eradicate Hitler's Nazis. More than 6,000,000 of my brothers, sisters, grandparents, aunts and uncles were exterminated because to many Believers "have been quiet and remained watching." Saddam was by himself and with his two sons, a mass weapon of destruction! His $25,000 grants to plo terrorists who murdered my relatives in Israel are clear connections to terrorism. My son, P. Binyamin, a member of the USAF Special Operations had my blessings as his rabbi father each of the two times he was deployed. He will have them again, should he be deployed yet again while under President Bush, his commander in chief. As a Jew, I can explain to you passionately the Scriptural responsibilities we have as Believers to protect and defend. Perhaps I do not need to, Neil. "GOD is Sovereign and YESHUA is love" does not exclude His judgment upon those who have turned away from His redemptive grace. I trust, Neil, that as you have been wisely counseled by others here to "ratchet down the rhetoric" that you will instead learn the art of strategic alliances as a Believer and fully participate in our republic form of government so that the righteous reign and the people rejoice. Love and Prayers, Rabbi Eukel

Rabbi DF Eukel

 2004/11/20 21:22Profile

 My dear Rabbi

Like you, I am also a Jew. I have followed Torah, ever since I was a small boy, and was bar-mitzvahed, sent to Hebrew school for many years. Since I was a young boy, I was taught what the hitlerites did to our people. I was taught and shown that this is a new epoch in the history of the Jewish people, and that we no longer sit idly by, while the cossacks kill us and take our women. We have a nation, Israel, and an army, the IDF. And when the IDF fights, it fights for the survival of the nation. It doesn't fight for imperial gain, or the domino theory, it fights for its survival.

Now America has a leader, George Bush, elected initially under some very dubious electoral conditions, but for the second term elected by a majority, said majority being "evangelicals".

Rabbi, I'm sure you heard the term, "generational sin". In my family the generational sin passed along was adultery and pill abuse, just to engage in some modicum of transparency. Since I got saved three years ago, and have been fire-baptized, I have worked towards sanctification, meaning I have less and less desire to take pills, or engage in adultery, or things that will make my life and my witness unclean, and unpleasing to God, and not reflect the Risen Saviour Who tabernacles in my heart.

I said that to say this, George Bush's grandfather Prescott Bush was a banker at Brown Brothers Harriman for many years. Prescott handled the account of Fritz Thyssen, german industrialist. Thyssen owned the largest steel and coal company in germany and grew rich from hitler's re-arming efforts in the 30's, and was a major financial supporter of hitler. Prescott Bush was a director for the Union Banking Cor which was the front company for Thyssen's American assets, and was eventually seized in 1942. There's a lot more to this story and its all available from recently declassified documents in the National Archives and the University of Maryland. In short Prescott Bush was warned after Sep of 39, Germany is regarded as potential adversary of the U.S. and to cease his dealings with ANY german companies. This arrangement continued LONG after Pearl Harbor, so much so that the company had to be seized in 1942.

There's a pattern of generational sin at work here. George Bush the first has no problem interfacing and counting among his friends the Sa-udi royal family, via his dealings with the Carlyle group. George Bush the first had no problems meeting with representatives of an islamic theocracy that held 52 of our citizens hostage in an effort to delay their release so as not to give Jimmy Carter (a real born again President) a pre-election bump. One can only speculate what he offered the Iranian's, as that October meeting was probably the genesis of the Iran-Contra scandal. George Bush the first had no problem ordering a war that on the surface was to bring Manuel Noriega to "justice", and killed up to 5,000 Panamian citizens that first night. This war was really to destroy the Panamian defense force so as to negate the treaty that would have turned the Canal back to Panamanian control. 5,000 dead. George Bush the first had no problem instructing Ambassador April Glaspie to tell Saddam Hussein we had no interest in inter-Arab land disputes. Saddam took this as a tacit go-ahead to conquer Kuwait as he knew our satellite recon capabilities given the fact we had supplied him with such intel during the Iran-Iraq war, and he knew WE KNEW he had massed troops on the border. What he didnt know is that we were looking for a way to "project force" into the oil rich Persian Gulf. The arabs arent dumb, they see this too. What do you think Bin-ladens major complaint was INITIALLY? That "infidel" troops sat occupying the Saudi Kingdom in its holy spots.
Now bin laden rants and raves about Judea and Samaria, but he didnt initially.

Many at this point believe I'm speaking of politics, but I'm speaking of sin, speaking against sin on a myriad of levels, national and individual. I wont speak anymore of Prescott and George the first for as far as I know neither men were GODLY men, meaning they never spoke of an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

But George Bush the second does, and herein the problem lies.

After 9/11, our nation prosecuted a war against the theocracy that was in place in Afghanistan, the Taliban. That nation was harboring bin-laden and the training network of Al-quaida. It appeared that God was with us. We did something the soviets couldnt do in a protracted multi-year, we subdued that nation in weeks. The world was behind us, as it was well known who killed all of those precious people in the towers, the pentagon and in the planes.

Then that generational worm worked its way into the mind of George Bush the second. Rabbi, if you know the Islamic brotherhood, which is really what Al-quaida is, you would know that the Iraqi ba-athist's had purged ANYONE in the Iraqi command structure with radical islamist leanings. The ba-athist's were a secular pan-arab political military entity....NOTHING to do with Islam. Yet this president and the men who surround him sold this nation that somehow the Iraqi's were hooked up with Al-quaida/(islamic brotherhood).


they might be nasty pan-arabists and sworn enemies of Israel, but the IDF never had a problem handling Iraq. In fact when the IAF took care of business in 1981, by bombing the Osirak reactor, the whole world, INCLUDING the U.S. censured Israel in the U.N.

Iraq never had a coherent tactical or strategic link-up with Al-Quaida.

Iraq never reconstituted its NBC weapons program, there was ample pre-war intelligence on this, yet George Bush said that Iraq had these weapons.

None have been found to date.

The nation of Iraq never attacked us, or was even planning to attack us. There has been no intelligence uncovered to date that would suggest that a pre-emptive attack was warranted.

Hence, as defined in the vigourous debate AMONGST believer's PRIOR to the war, this is NOT a JUST WAR. This war is UNJUST, therefore it is murder on a national level, and MURDER IS SIN.

Now, if you all who read this, those believers who confess the Name of Jesus as their Saviour
and as their Lord, if you all give spiritual cover to this depravity, this murderous sin, this national rapaciousness called the "war in Iraq", then you fall guilty also. As we speak out against abortion because its murder, so we must speak out against this unjust war.

If you fall prey to "groupthink", and say nothing, or even support this sin, then you are no better than those in the German church during the 30's and the war who said nothing against the hitlerites. You're no better than those believers in the United States during the first half of the 1800's who didnt speak out against the sin of slavery.

What has happened to our beautiful country is that we are now a haunt for every unclean beast, and give cover to every kind of murder, whether it be abortion on demand, or the "war in Iraq", or that bitter charade we call "capital punishment"

What has happened to the Bride of Christ that she fornicates with those in power? No wonder the damnable "prosperity gospel" has such resonance in this nation. I don't think the "church" and the state will remain separate for long.

But what really shocks me is the utter hypocrisy of those who say "Lord, Lord".

Hear me, there will come a day at the Judgement Bar, and He will say....................

I will continue to speak out against this war, and abortion and any other sin issue I see, and I dont care who I offend. I only care about making God happy.

Shalom dear Rabbi.

 2004/11/22 1:22

Joined: 2004/1/15
Posts: 87
Celbridge Kildare Ireland


Just a note of thanks to all our American Brothers and sisters. I watched with awe teh effect that your stand had in the election, and even though Pres Bush may not be everything at least you have a leader who is conscious of God, and is therefore open to hear from Him. Here in Europe the place of many revivals and the birthplace of Luther Wesley Spurgeon etc we are drifting into a Godless system of humanism which denies the very existance of God and demands that noone objects. The recent events in our European Parliment where an anti-abortion anti-Honosexual candidate was deemed to be unfit and was replaced by a convicted fraudster speaks volumes.

Anyway thank you for standing up it shows the rest of the world that the biggest democracy still can discern right form wrong and makes our job here in Europe easier as we can point to a culture elsewhere who are questioning the wisdom of the world which we are intent on following.

Paul R Carley

 2004/11/22 9:13Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re: My dear Rabbi

Br. Neil wrote:

What has happened to the Bride of Christ that she fornicates with those in power? No wonder the damnable "prosperity gospel" has such resonance in this nation. I don't think the "church" and the state will remain separate for long.

Paul teaches that:

1Cor. 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”

Paul also teaches:

2Th. 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

This particular king while being married to satan will seek to exault himself above God. And remember Paul teaches that the mighty are cast down, the wise are cast down, and for what reason? So that no flesh should glory in His presence.

Paul exhorts:

But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”

The Bride of Christ will only glorify the Lord. He is our High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec, The Lord of Peace and Righteousness.

He will bear the rod and destroy the kings of this earth. Ten legions of angels await His command.

I do not affirm that our president is this man, only that the people will drink from a cup that creates a delusion.

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2004/11/22 12:36Profile

Joined: 2004/1/28
Posts: 360


Yes we need to pray for our President George Bush but we must know what he stands for. Unfortunatley he is not living as Christian.

Visit [url=][/url]

for the truth of his unbliblical track record.

And pray...


a Jesus freak

 2004/11/22 12:46Profile

Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 129

 Re: My dear Rabbi

I admire Dobson in that he is unafraid what outlawing abortion would do to this country. He knows God is in control, and that the end of the USA is not the final end. Many empires have been brought down by less....
Only the fear of the Lord will end abortion. Not changing the Supreme Court, or voting GOP.
God's wisdom will teach us when life starts. Then, it will teach us not to take it. The USA govt and laws are not the instrument.
Dr Dobson is great. I miss his show.
Why don't we ban divorce? Alcohol? All the killers of choice?
It's all about choice, and free will.

 2004/11/22 14:08Profile

Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2811
Phoenix, Arizona USA


Unfortunatley he is not living as Christian. Visit

Boy, I'm sure glad there isn't a! Considering how often I fall short of the glory of God as revealed in Jesus Christ that would be one ugly website!

[i]This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.[/i](1 Timothy 1:15)

In Christ,


Ron Halverson

 2004/11/22 14:41Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re: Value Voters - Visiting or Vigilant?

RabbiEukel wrote:

Frankly, as a Believer who has been in the political strategy consulting practice for over 29 years, it only takes 100 committed Believers in a county to strategize strongly together to impact the local party leadership.

I have read of what is called astro turf politics. Where someone finances the establishment of a grass roots movement. The passion for this movement does not come from below but from above.

Have you been part of this?

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2004/11/22 16:51Profile

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