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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hasn't anybody noticed?

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 Re: Christian history towards Jews

Not everything that calls itself "Christian" is a Christian. If i walk into a donut shop and call myself a donut, does that make me a donut? If i buy a badge and gun and call myself a cop does that make me a cop? At NO time did Christians persecute Jews. Some Catholics did, and the Vatican assisted the Nazis in hiding their loot and in hiding Nazi murderers in Brazil, etc but don't go calling them "Christians". When you do that you slander the Bride of Christ, which is an offense to the Lord.

 2011/4/17 1:40

 Re: Hasn't anybody noticed?

Hi andie,

I had the same thought as Matthew, about reading the Pilgrim Church. It is very readable - not at all starchy - and holds the integrity of one who searched out the real story, and just told it. He wasn't looking to pull anyone down, but rather to exalt the word of God, as capable (without additional teachers), of leading us each into truth, in tha same way as we can know the voice of the Shepherd when we hear it. (John 10). That is, until our freedom to follow God has been undermined so consistently, that we no longer know who is speaking to us and find ourselves assuming it must be God because someone else says so. I've been there, and am deeply, deeply saddened to know you are choosing to believe men rather than your Father in heaven, to whom you have access by the Holy Spirit - 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling'(Ephesians 1)

Regarding the on-going discussion about Transubstantiation in this thread, I want to bring to your attention these words from Paul in the KJV.

'For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Wherefore henceforth know we NO MAN after the flesh: yea, THOUGH WE HAVE KNOWN CHRIST AFTER THE FLESH yet NOW henceforth know we [him] NO MORE.

Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2 Corinthians 5:14 - 17

This declaration by the apostle Paul puts the body of Christ into its present, spiritual perspective, long before the Church of Rome began to resurrect it as a dead body, rather than a live body - which it is - seated in heaven since the Ascension. (Ephesians 1:19 - 23, Ephesians 2:5, 6). You are seated in heaven IN HIM, spiritually. In Him are you alive.

Paul is writing against the context of many forms of idolatry in the Roman empire, all of which have evil spiritual associations. Within these, mankind oft-times recognises the need for a sacrifice, or sacrifices to these gods, frequently involving the death of a creature. Where the creature is human, this is an abomination in God's sight; it is murder; it destroys a life of one made in His image, though fallen, which could never redeem from sin. Priests of baal do actually eat the sacrifice too.

Now we can see why Paul is keen while writing to a congregation of mainly Gentile origin, to make a clear distinction between local abominable practices, and the pureness and rightness of Christ's death as the Lamb of God who REALLY IS ABLE TO TAKE AWAY SIN - sin being a spiritual power which had corrupted the image of God.

Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:'

In the two verses above, we see that even under the Old Covenant sin was only covered by blood, it was not removed.

Now, we are invited to be cleansed from sin WITHIN by the SPIRITUAL application of Christ's blood to our souls. This is how we maintain a right standing IN FACT with God our Father.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The sharing of broken bread and poured out wine is a way which Christians down through the centuries since Christ anticipated His death, can remember Christ's death for them, anticipating His resurrection, (now by implication our own), and by the Spirit of God - for it is He who makes any of this meaningful in our real time experience - be convicted of sin, given grace to repent, and with joy receive forgiveness that we may rejoice meaningfully in our salvation giving real glory to God.

All these are spiritual transactions completed in heavenly places in Christ.

It is not necessary that the bread and wine 'become' the 'flesh' and 'blood' of Christ. Not only is this against what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5 quoted above, it is not true.

If you have read this whole post, andie, thank you, and please, again, I urge you to search the scriptures which are able to make you wise regarding salvation. You know that Erasmus was a Catholic, I'm sure. Well, the best collection of original texts was gathered by him to translate into Latin. The same original texts were translated into English, but this is NOT the version you have in a modern Jerusalem Bible. Be aware.

If you really do find yourself attracted by the ritual side of Christianity, you would do better to find a Messianic synagogue - of which there are many in your neck of the woods - and learn from Jewish Christians. They understand from two thousand years BEFORE CHRIST, how Jesus Christ fulfilled all that their prophets - and angels - had longed to see fulfilled, that God Himself might rejoice in His work of redemption through Christ in the saving of men from His wrath.

 2011/4/17 6:43

 Re: Hasn't anybody noticed?

andie, I also wanted to comment on this which you said on the previous page:

I now believe in scripture and apostolic tradition. The rest of the church did too until the reformation.

Roman Catholic literature may well propose this view, but it is only a part of the history of the Church.

Unless you research from long before the Reformation, and from non-Catholic sources, you will not find the whole story.

The Reformation was about revelation and understanding of scripture which caused men and women to pull away from Rome, but there had always been a vibrant part of the Church outside Rome's influence all the time, instigated by those who had left Jerusalem after Pentecost, taking the gospel with them.

Not least of these were those who returned to their home countries all over the world, (Acts 2) but many others followed, through trade, or persecution (Jesus had warned them to flee persecution.) A pure form of Christianity was in Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. (These are the places I know about, but I'm sure Christians settled elsewhere in the world, too.)

In John's third epistle v 9, there's an important comment on a man who refused to let the apostle John visit his church. His name was Diotrephes. John says of him, 'who loveth to have the preeminence among them'.

Why does this matter? It goes along with what Jesus said about Pharisees loving the best seats and dressing up to seem important, and is diametrically - or diabolically - opposed to Paul's exhortation in Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Much more could be said about the potential for hierarchy in the church, which in John 13 Jesus redefines for His real disciples.

I am well aware of how comforting it is to join an organisation which seems to have everything worked out, but again, this is not what Christians are exhorted by Peter himself, who said:

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence
to make your calling and election sure:
for IF ye do these things, ye shall NEVER fall:

[For 'these things', please read the earlier verses.]

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly
into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1

Even in the 800s in Britain, when the king with the most territory became formally 'Roman Catholic', not all the Christians in England were in agreement with him. You can read about this in Bede's account.

Please remember this verse from Romans 6, and regularly ask yourself if you are still free to submit yourself to the Lord - 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:
[but] the Son abideth ever.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

I know that ye are Abraham's seed;
but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

I speak that which I have seen with my Father:
and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father.

Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
John 8

 2011/4/21 18:43

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