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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2200

 Re: A777

Hi Nathan4Jesus,
I realize that Ian Paisley is courageous but as an ex southern ireland catholic I have to say Ian comes out of the whole Northern Ireland problem badly in my opinion.At times he was quite bigotted.Politics got in the way of his ministry.He should have stayed out of politics altogether.
He should have been preaching about the Orange Order another anti christian organisation.So lets be even handed Ian owes southerners an apology and lost the chance to preach and bring revival south of the border by putting unionism before christianity.
As a person I find him quite inspiring and humourous with a great preaching gift no doubt,Yours Staff

 2011/4/15 19:18Profile


Yes, I know none of his past. Only that Democrats in America and especially the Kennedy family were influential in revoking his Visa and banned him from the U.S. (He could not be that bad, eh). Not too long ago, he was allowed back in.

But, as far as his past in Ireland, I don't know.

Neil and I are only pointing to the truth that he preaches.

Concentrating on the message and not the messenger.


 2011/4/15 19:21

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2200


hi anonymous,
His name is mud with Irish Catholics altough I think secretly they do have respect for him in recent years for his role in helping bring peace.However for the best part of his ministry while preaching Christ he was also saying home rule is rome rule and marching with groups that included the orange order.So he had double standards which has to be pointed out.I have respect for him but still would find it hard to listen to him preach no matter how accurate the message is,Yours Staff

 2011/4/15 19:36Profile

 Re: staff

yeh, i've heard that before, that Ian should have stayed out of politics.

i forgot who said it, but they said and i'm paraphrasing, that Ian's preaching and teaching was so annointed, that he could have been on par with Wesley, but his daliance in politic's negatively impacted his witness.

and i agree with that. His early sermons?!!!! His later stuff?...not so much

dear brothers of mine, from the UK, Ireland, who came out of rome, dont have a favorable opinion of him, which i believe dovetails with what Jesus said, you cant serve mammon AND God.

...and politics has become a very nasty greedy business, not fit for a dolous of Christ.

ps that sermon below, "Five Steps to Genuine Revival" is really quite edifying,,, quite good, neil

 2011/4/15 19:40

 Re: staff

His early sermons?!!!!

Have any recommendations? I'd like to hear one (of his earlier ones I mean).

 2011/4/15 19:42


Hi Andie,

I have read Home Sweet Rome by Scott Hahn and listened to many of his audio talks. I have not read anything by David Currie, though. I prefer "Far from Rome, Near to God" by Richard Bennett. It contains the testimonies of 50 priests that left the RCC. It's a good book if you want to read it.

I get a kick out of all these authors and how they title their books with a play on words using "ROME". There are more such titles. Regardless of who is right or wrong, you just have to chuckle. I thought, "That is a great name for a book", when I first was given Scott Hahn's book. I believe he has had quite a lot of success with his book and his audio and videos. He is a very accomplished Catholic apologist.

Please don't think if you share some things about your faith and beliefs that you are forcing them on us. I think you should share everything and anything that is on your heart. I won't enter into debate with you at all.

Some people on this forum may not want to hear it but that should not stop you from sharing.

I have noticed myself, when someone just does not want to hear something, they portray you as "forcing" something on them. Pretty ludicrous statement in an online forum, don't you think?

In that book by Richard Bennett, here are the names of those 50 priests. I have several of these books and would be happy to send you one. No forcing whatsoever. :-)

This book contains the moving testimonies of fifty priests who found their way by the grace of God out of the labyrinth of Roman Catholic theology and practice into the light of the gospel of Christ.

From the back cover:

This is not a narrowly polemical work, nor is its relevance limited to the ongoing controversy between Rome and the churches of the Reformation. The love and concern felt by the former priests for those they left behind, and their fervent desire that they too should experience the joy and peace of salvation in Christ are seen throughout. The wider relevance of the experiences described will also be felt in many contexts remote from Roman Catholicism where human pride and presumption have erected rival sources of authority between people and the Word of God, so obscuring the way of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone.

Richard Bennett is the Director of Berean Beacon, based in Portland, Oregon, USA. Martin Buckingham is the Director of The Converted Catholic Mission in Leicester, UK.

Henry Gregory Adams: Christ Alone Is the Way
Joseph Tremblay: A Priest, but a Stranger to God
Bartholomew F. Brewer: Pilgrimage from Rome
Hugh Farrell: From Friar to Freedom in Christ
Robert V. Julien: Saved by the Free Grace of God
Alexander Carson: Free Indeed
Charles Berry: A Priest Asks God for Grace
Bob Bush: Once a Jesuit, Now a Child of God
Cipriano Valdes Jaimes: An Irresistible Call
Dario A. Santamaria: Yesterday, a Priest—Today, a Missionary
Miguel Carvajal: Why I Left the Monastery
Anibal Pereira Dos Reis: If I Had Stayed in Roman Catholicism, I Would Not Have Found Jesus
Arnaldo Uchoa Cavalcante: Grace and Truth Came to Me by Jesus Christ
Thoufic Khouri: The Gospel of Grace in Jesus Christ
Victor J. Affonso: Following Jesus Without Compromise
Simon Kottoor: There is Power in Christ's Atoning Blood
Jose Borras: From the Monastery to the Ministry
Enrique Fernandez: I Discovered the Word of God
Francisco Lacueva: My 'Damascus Road'
Juan T. Sanz: 'Thou Knowest That I Love Thee'
Celso Muniz: The Professor's Methods Did Not Work
Manuel Garrido Aldama: From Roman Priest to Radio Evangelist
Jose Manuel de LeÛn: Jesus Saved Even Me
Jose A. Fernandez: I Was Blind, Now I See
Jose Rico: Life Begins for a Jesuit Priest
Mark Pena: The Lord Became My Righteousness
Luis Padrosa: Twenty-Three Years in the Jesuit Order
Joseph Zacchello: I Could Not Serve Two Masters
Joseph Lulich: The Word of God Came to My Rescue
Mariano Rughi: Living Water—Peace with God
John Zanon: I Found Christ the Only Mediator
John Preston: From Works to the Light of the Gospel
Guido Scalzi: My Encounter with God
Benigno Zuniga: Transformed by Christ
Bruno Bottesin: I Was Not Antagonistic to the Truth
Renato di Lorenzo: A Monk for Twenty Years, Then Born Again
Franco Maggiotto: Saved while Officiating at Mass
Eduardo Labanchi: I Received Mercy
Anthony Pezzotta: I Found Everything When I Found Christ
Salvatore Gargiulo: I Was a Blind Leader of the Blind
Carlo Fumagalli: From Death to Life
Gregor Dalliard: Not Ashamed of Christ
Toon Vanhuysse: The Truth Set Me Free
Herman Hegger: Light and Life in Christ
J. M. A. Hendriksen: From Priest to Preacher
Jacob Van der Velden: God's Grace in New Guinea
Charles A. Bolton: My Path into Christ's Joy
Leo Lehmann: The Soul of a Priest
Vincent O' Shaughnessy: From Dead Religion to New Life in Christ
Richard Peter Bennett: From Tradition to Truth

God bless you as you continue your journey to Him.


 2011/4/15 19:47


entitled "Five Steps to Genuine Revival"

much love, neil

 2011/4/15 19:55



To be fair I will read the 50 priests book. I am glad you have read one of the books I suggested, at least you are making an informed decision.

When I read the one by David Currie I realized I DO believe in scripture and tradition. If the church fathers through the ages believed in the real presence of Christ in the consecrated bread and wine, I believe it too. If the church fathers throughout the ages believed that we are born again during baptism and in baptizing infants, I believe it too.

I trust the tradition of the church over the opinion of Luther. I certainly don't share many of his other personal opinions. His view of the Jewish for one.

Addit: I do recognize that Luther did not personally change all the traditions, but his ideas lead to personal interpretation of scriptures, starting with his own personal opinions, and it has continued since then leading to many different denominations.

 2011/4/16 5:54

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida


Dear andie72,

You seem to be drawn to accepting what 'men' accept and I feel you are missing what Jesus said about the Blind leading the Blind. Follow God's Word not man's traditions or you will end up in a ditch.

Matthew 15:9 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Tradition = doctrines of men

. . . . I DO believe in scripture and tradition. If the church fathers through the ages believed in the real presence of Christ in the consecrated bread and wine, I believe it too. If the church fathers throughout the ages believed that we are born again during baptism and in baptizing infants, I believe it too.

. . . . I trust the tradition of the church over the opinion of Luther. . . .

Consider this from 2 Kings, the priests were surly conducting services but not God's services.
2 Kings 22:8-20
8: And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.
9: And Shaphan the scribe came to the king, and brought the king word again, and said, Thy servants have gathered the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD.
10: And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.
11: And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.
12: And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying,
13: Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.
14: So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.
15: And she said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me,
16: Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
17: Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.
18: But to the king of Judah which sent you to enquire of the LORD, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;
19: Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the LORD.
20: Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.

I looked in Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Bible for this scripture and here is some of what he wrote (hundreds of years ago and it is still valid).
No summaries, extracts, or collections, out of the Bible (though they may have their use) can be effectual to convey and preserve the knowledge of God and his will like the Bible itself. It was no marvel that the people were so corrupt when the book of the law was such a scarce thing among them; where that vision is not the people perish. Those that endeavoured to debauch them no doubt used all the arts they could to get that book out of their hands. The church of Rome could not keep up the use of images but by forbidding the use of the scripture.

I am glad to see you are open minded and are reading what is posted. You are in my prayers,

white stone


 2011/4/16 10:29Profile


Hi Andie,

I have to smile (not laugh) when I read your comment about "informed decision". I was an altar boy in the RCC having to learn and use Latin (60's) when the Mass was said in Latin before Vatican II. I went to Catholic schools, I was taught the Catechism and both parents went to Jesuit schools all the way through University. So, this was not something I "dabbled" in. And please don't think I was offended, not at all. We have to remember that we are writing text back and forth to each other and it takes time to learn about one another. It is also easy to "misunderstand" or "read into", but if we choose to believe "the best" about the person at the other end of our messages, then the conversation should always go well. :-) In other words, we should be able to stay in "peace" while we converse with each other.

Regarding "church fathers", this is my stance from knowing the Lord, His Word and witnessing how men love to use "holy men" as their authorities and not the Word of God. As far as I am concerned the Church Fathers are the 12 Apostles and anyone else in the New Testament such as Timothy, Luke, etc., that the Holy Spirit inspired to write the NT. Beyond, that, I am not impressed with what anyone has to say if it contradicts God's Word. I hope you believe the same.

What has happened, in my opinion is that men have nullified or overridden what the Holy Spirit said through the 12 Apostles. These men are now called the "Church Fathers" as if that gives them any extra credibility or authority over what the 12 Apostles originally said and did. And clearly, "Church Fathers" are cited all the time over the Apostles concerning church doctrine, over and over again, on many issues. This is not just done by the Catholic Church.

So, who has the biggest "Church Father", is the game that is played. We have Augustine, we have Luther, we have Aquinas, we have Calvin we have Liguori and on and on it goes, trumping each other like a poker game.

But since you brought it up regarding the "real presence" of Christ in the wafer (Eucharist). Allow me to comment. Scriptures states:

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

These verses along with "church tradition" are used to establish the Doctrine of Transubstantiation where the elements of bread and wine turn into the Real Body and Real Blood of Jesus.

Andie, any major established doctrine in the Bible is usually built on a solid foundation of many verses, many "witnesses" of scripture and not just one verse. The doctrine of Holy Communion of the Catholic Church is one of their most major doctrines and it is taken from John 6, but not all of John 6, just the scriptures that are needed.

Jesus Himself said, in the context of His body and blood, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." But these scriptures are not mentioned or dealt with even though they are part of the context.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Andie, it is the spirit that quickeneth, His words are spirit and life.

There is no record in the Bible that the last supper bread and wine turned into human flesh and blood. After blessing the elements Jesus referred to the wine, not as His blood, but as "the fruit of the vine." (Matt 26:29, Mark 14:25, Luke 22:18) At Cana, however, the water Jesus changed into wine actually became wine. In First Corinthians 11:26, the bread is always called "bread" and wine is always called the "cup." Therefore, there is no Scriptural basis that the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper can be said to become the physical body and blood of Christ. Only Tradition spoken of by "church fathers" supports this MAJOR DOCTRINE.

Most importantly, how can one receive in Communion, HE, who supposedly already indwells one's soul?

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

So, I trust the Scriptures over the opinion of Luther, Calvin, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and any other man titled a "Church Father", whether from the Catholic or Protestant camp. I don't negate history, but neither do I go with "history" when it contradicts God's Word.

The doctrine of "transubstantiation" came into being at the same time as "auricular confession". That was 1215 A.D., by the Fourth Lateran Council.

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

The New Testament came into effect not at the Last Supper, but at the actual shedding of His blood on the Cross. For clearly at the Last Supper, His body was not broken and He was not bleeding. What they did at the Last Supper is what we do today, in REMEMBRANCE of His wonderful sacrifice for us.

We don't have to go to Mass everyday to receive Jesus. He indwells the Believer 24x7.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Kind regards,

 2011/4/16 11:17

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