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 Re:

Edited: I'll ask my question at another time.

If I may insert this rendering of this verse:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time, Michael [who is like God?] shall stand up, the great prince the Advocate for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Sounds like Jesus.

 2011/2/7 16:35
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Again,
I am saying that after the 7 year period of which the last half of it is the Great Tribulation that then the 70 wks are complete,so what period are we in then.
We have the 69 wks to when Jesus was crucified and then the70 week beginning with a covenant with the antichrist.
Their seems to be a gap between the end of the seven years and his return.or not?
I think to get an accurate picture of the end we should study the 42months,times time and half a time,1260 days,where they are used and what they signify.
Only part of that is in Revelation and Daniel.
yours staff

 2011/2/7 17:39Profile









 Re: Could I get a Post Tribulation view if possible on the following....


Hi staff,

Quote:
I am saying that after the 7 year period of which the last half of it is the Great Tribulation that then the 70 wks are complete,so what period are we in then.

I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were agreeing with me that the 70th week should follow immediately after the 69th week (which ended over 2000 years ago) - that is, if the 69th week is the one in which Jesus was crucified.

 2011/2/7 18:19
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
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 Re:

Hi,Sorry I wasnt clear,staff

 2011/2/7 19:24Profile
elected
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Joined: 2004/11/21
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Tulsa OK

 Re:

Quote:
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:30,31



Sorry for going a bit off the subject.

I have a question? what is the sign of the Son of Man that people will see at the second coming of the Lord? Is it going to appear in the shape of the cross in the sky?

When the Lord appears on the clouds of the sky at his second coming, right after that the angles of the Lord will gather the elect from the four corners of the world. Where are the saints going to be gathered? Is this referring to the rapture?

Pre-trib believe that in Revelation 4 the church will be raptured before the tribulation but in Revelation 19:7 we see that the marriage supper of the Lamb is after the great tribulation not before because in Rev.20 after the marriage supper we see the millennium reign of Christ on earth. Logically it does not make any sense that Christ will marry twice his Bride once in Rev. 4 and once in Rev. 19.

Strange that Rev. 4 does not mentions at all rapture or the marriage supper of the Lamb. Fact is there is not even one Scripture in the all the Bible that proves the theory of pre-trib rapture, if anyone has found at least one verse to back up this teaching please let me know?

Where did this idea of pre-trib rapture came from? Not from the scripture, as no one till today has not been able to find even one verse to support the theory. All this started when a 15 year old girl from Scotland had a vision where she saw God taking up his church before judgment and tribulation. She told her vision in bible schools and the plymouth brethren spread this teaching in England. It was Scofield who introduced the teaching in bible commentaries and bible schools and thats how it became very popular among the fundamentalists and later on among evangelicals.



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Redi

 2011/2/8 5:45Profile









 ECF, post 70 A.D.


Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165)

"Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, ... Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus." [Dialog with Trypho, CX]



Irenaeus: Discipled by Polycarp, who sat under John. (AD. 120-202)

"Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. ... It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. ... But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this "man" comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this "man" and those who follow "him" into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." [Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX]

" an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor a legitimate king in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless 'one'; as an apostate, iniquitous, and murderous, as a robber, concentrating in himself satanic apostasy, and seeking aside idols to persuade that he himself is God raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians."

"And there is therefore in this beast, when he (Antichrist) comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire...since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels."

"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise...These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords, and King of kings...And they (Ten Kings) shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” [Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1]

"But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware of who he is:...But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple in Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” [Against Heresies V, XXX, 2, 4]

"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of the Antichrist, and the destruction of nations under his rule; in (the times of) which (resurrection) the righteous shall reign on the earth...and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked 'one' (Antichrist)." [Against Heresies V, XXXV, 1]



Hippolytus: Bishop of Portus, was a disciple of Irenaeus who was discipled by Polycarp who sat under John.(AD. 170-236)

"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28]

It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time that impious one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed from heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire...With respect to his name, it is not in our power to explain it exactly, as the blessed John understood it and was instructed about it, but only to give a conjectural account of it; for when he appears, the blessed one will show us what we seek to know... Wherefore we ought neither to give it out as if this were certainly his name, nor again ignore the fact that he may not otherwise be designated. But having the mystery of God in our heart, we ought in fear to keep faithfully what has been told us by blessed prophets, in order that when those things come to pass, we may be prepared for them, and not be deceived. For when the times advance, he too, of whom these things are said, will be manifest...Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus, "And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, ... And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent”...That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church.... These things then, being come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 5, 50, 60, 61, 64]

"For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Savior was manifested as a lamb; so he too in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Savior came into the world in the circumcision, and he will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Savior gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad, and he in like manner will bring together a people that is scattered abroad. The Lord gave a seal to those who believed on Him; and he will give one in like manner. The Savior appeared in the form of man, and he too will come in the form of a man. The Savior raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem."

"He (Antichrist) will be harsh, severe, passionate, wrathful, terrible, inconstant, dread, morose, hateful, abominable, savage, vengeful, iniquitous. And, bent on casting the whole race of men into the pit of perdition, he will multiply false signs."

“When the times are fulfilled, and the ten horns spring from the beast in the last (times), then Antichrist will appear among them. When he makes war against the saints, and persecutes them, then may we expect the manifestation of the Lord from heaven. [Fragments from Commentaries, II, 7]

these shall be sent through every city and country to destroy the faithful; and the saints shall travel from the west to the east, and shall be driven in persecution from the east to the south, while others shall conceal themselves in the mountains and caves; and the abomination shall war against them everywhere, and shall cut them off by the sea and by land by his decree, and shall endeavor by every means to destroy them out of the world; and they shall not be able any longer to sell their own property, nor to buy from strangers, unless one keeps and carries with him the name of the beast, or bears its mark upon his forehead. For then they shall all be driven out from place to place, and dragged from their own homes and haled into prison, and punished with all manner of punishment, and cast out from the whole world." These shall awake to everlasting life."


Tertullian (c. 160 - 225)

“[Babylon] that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, and that the beast Antichrist, with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God...Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate on the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world ...Now the privilege of this favor (the resurrection) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints...” [On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XXV, 7 and XLI]


Lactantius (260-330)

"He (Antichrist) shall harass the word with an intolerable rule; shall mingle things divine and human; shall contrive things impious to relate, and detestable; shall meditate new designs in his breast, that he may establish the government for himself; he will change the laws, and appoint his own; he will contaminate, plunder, spoil, and put to death."

 2011/2/8 12:51









 Re: Could I get a Post Tribulation view if possible on the following....


Hi castling,

Been pondering your question about the sign of the Son of man. I always think of Stephen seeing heaven opened, and the Son of God standing there. This reminds me of the door which is opened in heaven, early in Revelation.

There is also the sound of the trumpet.

Lastly, there are three times in the gospels when God spoke from heaven. Some people heard thunder, but John heard words.

 2011/2/8 16:23









 Re: Could I get a Post Tribulation view if possible on the following....


Hi staff,

Here are some verse from Matthew 24. To whom do you understand they refer?

8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.




 2011/2/8 16:46
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re: ECF, post 70 A.D.

Thanks "Jesus-Is-God" for posting these quotes from 3 credible sources. It was very informative. I've always found it very difficult to understand most of the Apocalypse of John.

When the Church assembled, in the 4th Century AD, the books of the Bible, The Apocalypse of John beat out the Apocalypse of Peter by just two votes. Neither book made much sense to me. So I just kind of ignored the Apocalypse of John.

Even with the info you provided, I still do not know what I ought to do about it, or prepare for it. It is clear that the powers that be in our current world are already in the process of undermining and destroying Christianity.


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Arthur Biele

 2011/2/8 16:56Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

hi Elected,
I had the exact same thoughts of the sign of the son of man that it would be a cross in the sky.That doesnt make it scriptural but.....
Also I heard a sermon on Numbers where the tribes are camped around the tabernacle in the plain and all are given an exact position.And when you work it out they surrounded the tabernacle in the shape of a cross.I didnt get to check it out.
Also ask a pre tribber for scriptures and they will reel of loads.I am not saying that they are correct.
I think all views on the rapture/resurection should look at the consequences if they are wrong.
For instance if pretribbers are wrong people could say that they will cause a falling away.
Also I noticed that it is too easy to cry heresy ,heresy by all opinions on the end times.Their are christians who hold opposing views on this who love and live for Christ and would hate that they got it wrong,not for pride reasons but that wanted preach and teach the word correct for the lord.
As for a scripture about not being take out before Judgement,well thats what part of this post is about.
No Judgement came on the people of Noahs day UNTIL THE DAY God closed the door on the ark and no fire or brimstone fell on Sodom until the two angels took Lot out of Sodom but on THAT VERY DAY Judgement came as highlighted by Jesus.
Now you can take those scriptures examples either as a rapture/resurection or as God taking his people out in another way,
Thanks Staff


 2011/2/8 17:09Profile





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