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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Saint or sinner

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I'll ask .... Do you guys see the quotes from Paul that I posted as "the Law" ?

I only ask that because there is an increasing body of people who now believe that ANY mention of NT Scriptures about pressing-on or obedience is "works" or "the law".

 2011/1/9 13:06

 Re: Saint or sinner

Hi Jesus-is-GOD

Do you guys see the quotes from Paul that I posted as "the Law" ?

Absolutely not. You can't do any of that in the manner Paul meant it, unless you've been baptised into Christ's death and raised in Him to walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4.

 2011/1/9 13:38


I agree. You wouldn't even desire any of the things that Paul desired, in those type verses, unless that were the case.

I sorta knew how you felt, it was "those guys" I was wondering about :)

Thank you & Bless you!

 2011/1/9 13:51


"those guys"


Count me in what AtG said, he's right!

 2011/1/9 14:01

 Re: Saint or sinner

I sorta knew how you felt

That's comforting to know :) Bless you too.

Doug, you asked me to look at 'end' in Strong's, regarding Romans 10:4. I still don't see how it's related to 'as in a race'. I see it in the context Paul gives it, which is 'the end of the law'.

Romans 10:4
For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


Note: FROM a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);

5056 telos {tel'-os}

TDNT - 8:49,1161; n n
AV - end 35, custom 3, uttermost 1, finally 1, ending 1,
by (one's) continual + 1519 1; 42
1) end
1a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be
(ALWAYS of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
1b) the end
1b1) the last in any succession or series
1b2) eternal
1c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
1d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

 2011/1/9 14:08

Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


Why is keeping or not keeping the Law such a fight between brothers and sisters, when we know the Law will not save us or give us any free ticket into the Kingdom of God?

"Ye must be born again".

The is only one punched ticket that when presented to God will allow us to enter His Kingdom. Jesus Christ is the Only One God the Father sees in the believer, He is no respecter of persons in our humaness, He only validates sons' by the Only Begotten first born Son that He rebirthed in the believer when we acquire the knowledge of; "Jesus Christ is the Son of God", Amen.


It is not a matter of keeping the law........ that is a Pharisee mindset but being able to use the law "lawfully" is a necessary first step to obtaining the knowledge needed for Christ to be formed in us.

Those seven foundational doctrines in He 6 that MUST be understood before Christ can be formed in you are just the start of the knowledge needed to possess before Christ can be formed in anyone. However without the knowledge of the law those doctrines will never be understood........ even though many christians think that they already understand those doctrines just like some christians think that they are already sanctified when they are not.

The mind of Christ formed in someone has knowledge of all the things of God, has forgiven all of their sins no matter the severity and is conduit for God to work signs and wonders through. However those things will never be achieved by anyone until they have the knowledge that the law reveals the things of God and the mind of Christ.

It never was about keeping the law........ all trying to do that proves that no one can keep the law however the knowledge that comes from understanding the law reveals the truth. When one does understand the law they are able to see that 90% of what is taught in 90% of the churches prohibits Christ from being formed in it membership and why signs and wonders are a thing of the past when it comes to the church.

All false doctrines and "thinking errors" are from Satan and nothing from Satan will ever get into heaven......... only the law can prove a doctrine to be true or false and the law and the Holy Spirit are always in agreement.

This is why David spent so much time studying the law and said that he delighted in it because of all the revelation that comes through the knowledge that the study of the law reveals ........ not about being able to keep 613 commandments that were never intended to be kept in the natural

Because the Church fails to pursue the knowledge contained within the law Hosea made the following prophecy

Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

It is impossible for any christian to acquire the mind of Christ without first understanding how God intends for His Law to be understood and used.



 2011/1/9 14:14Profile

Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


Doug, you asked me to look at 'end' in Strong's, regarding Romans 10:4. I still don't see how it's related to 'as in a race'

For your edification

5056. telos tel'-os from a primary tello (TO SET OUT FOR A DEFINITE POINT OR GOAL); PROPERLY, THE POINT AIMED AT AS A LIMIT, i.e. (by implication) THE CONCLUSION OF AN ACT OR STATE (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):--+ continual, custom, end(-ing), FINALLY, UTTERMOST

 2011/1/9 16:59Profile

 Re: Saint or sinner

I would like to continue in Romans 10:4, with the second part of it: 'for righteousness to every one that believeth.'

This is what Paul said earlier in the epistle.

3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 [Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Lastly, 1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing...

8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away...'

We need to know Christ.

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Cor 1

 2011/1/9 18:21

Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


hi, when Jesus died on the cross for us, He took the judgement of the Father on Himself for us. there is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.we were condemned already for sin before we repented(surrendered the rule of our lives over to rule of Christ in our lives)...making ourselves a living sacrifice unto Jesus.we do not do this ourselves for the Holy Spirit births us from above(you cant birth yourself)...being born from the Spirit we have the ability to walk in the Spirit...the law cannot do anything except point out the fact of the futility of trying to live by it without Christ,without the Holy Spirit...walking in the Spirit is walking in agreement with the law with out the bondage of theonus being on becomes progressively easier to not have other gods or not to lie or steal or kill or covet because it is no longer something we are in charge of but it is under the control of the Holy Spirit that lives in us that leads us as we are being saved(sanctification)...our minds are now on the salution to the problem(Jesus)and not the problem(the law and our inability to keep it on our own).we become Christ centered and not self centered and as we grow we become others centered and even generous toward others because of Gods life living in is a process as normal as life is a process.babies need all the help they can get as do toddlers but as one grows we need less help in the growth process and more in other areas.we are never to be in bondage to sin or to the law...we are bond slaves to Jesus who is truly responsible for our salvation.jimp

 2011/1/9 20:50Profile


Brother Jim wrote: " we are being saved..."

Brother, THIS was So refreshing to hear. I know you went to school as well, but I haven't heard this said since Romans class with my favorite long-gone-to-Heaven Greek Prof over thirty years ago. I got tears of joy at your statement here. I kept repeating "be-ing saved" for over an hour and such a joy and HOPE raised up in me. It's Wonderful - Glory to GOD!

Thank you very much Brother for giving joy & renewing hope.


 2011/1/9 21:39

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