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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Saint or sinner

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Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


I think it is going to be a natural response to see saints in a better light than how we would think a sinner appears yet the prodigal son was never "not a son". What about the lost sheep that Jesus celebrates being found?

Many times I have heard someone say "if so and so was really saved they would have never of done those things". However sin that is a noun and is a living principality is still alive in Christians after they "become saved". Paul make this very clear in Ro. 7:20 -24 and anyone who denies it is in error and living in the sin of unbelief even though they are still christians and called to be saints

Here in the Bible Belt of SC I find way to many "christians" that are senior church members, clergy members, and/or serving in the local government to be some of the most dishonest people I have ever met. But if you were to ask either them or other church members as to their "sinner or saint" status all that you are going to hear about is what good people they are.



 2011/1/7 4:36Profile


It's just minute by minute or moment by moment 'choices' that add up to our final character. What and where we allow our minds to go. Where we spend our thought life. That's all I believe Brother Approved.

Thank you JesusisGod, that is an encouraging and realistic approach.

 2011/1/7 7:32

 Re: Saint or sinner

I realise there are many Christians, some of whom have posted on SI stating the beliefs which I disagree. I have not, I hope, attacked them for that.

Here are more scriptures which strongly suggest God has vanquished Satan and sin, that we might partake freely of His victory. I hope readers find them helpful.

Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Please note: 'which GIVETH us the victory'. In other words, we RECEIVE the complete victory, or, not.

Matthew 3: '... I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

2 Corinthians 5 - Young's
14 for the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died, 15 and for all he died, that those living, no more to themselves may live, but to him who died for them, and was raised again. 16 So that we henceforth have known no one according to the flesh, and even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him no more; 17 so that if any one [is] in Christ--[he is] a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things. 18 And the all things [are] of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation, 19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation, 20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;' 21 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.

KJV again: Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

The word 'faith' does not appear in John's gospel, but 'believe' appears 80 times.

Edited for brevity.

 2011/1/7 17:46

Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


Sister Linn

The spirit of the life of Jesus Christ that is the law of faith in you does make you free from the law of in and death because through it you can overcome the law of sin still living in you. However that does not mean that sin in you, me or anyone else has already been destroyed. For the law of sin in us to be already destroyed would mean that the process of our sanctification is already complete.

Are you fully sanctified Linn?......... Personally I do not think anyone that is alive today is already sanctified but if you think different then please consider the following verse

He. 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

To be "one" in the scripture is to be the same as Jesus who is the expressed image of God who together are "one". In other words if we are fully sanctified then we appear the same as Jesus Christ and are not unlike the "fellow servant" that looked so much like Jesus in Rev. 19;10 that John who walked with Jesus throughout His Ministry was not able to tell them apart.

Paul makes it very clear that he is still dealing with the temptations of sin in Ro 7 that he goes as far a to call himself "wretched" over the constant diligence of keeping sin from overtaking him

The caps are my emphasis to help you see that the body of sin is still alive and well in Christians

Ro.7: 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, BUT SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME.

18 FOR I KNOW THAT IN ME (THAT IS, IN MY FLESH,) DWELLETH NO GOOD THING: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, BUT SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and BRINGING ME INTO CAPTIVITY TO THE LAW OF SIN WHICH IS IN MY MEMBERS.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then WITH THE MIND I MYSELF SERVE THE LAW OF GOD; BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN.

KJV again: Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Please note the key word "IF" in verse 25. Paul is obviously talking about us living in the Holy Spirit and not the unclean spirit of man yet the Holy Spirit that knows all truth also knows that Paul agrees that sin still lives in man. However since you say that sin is already destroyed how can you be living in the Holy Spirit when you disagree with what the Bible says about sin living in us?

Christ did vanquish Satan and put him to an open shame and it is through His Holy Spirit in us we can do the same........ getting to that point is part of our sanctification that we are still both going through as I speak.

Paul often speak of what has already been accomplished in them (the Apostles) as to what needs to be done in us but that is not to be confused with what work still need to be done in us

For example look how he speaks of the mind of Christ that destroyed sin at the Cross

1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Here Paul peaks of him and the others having the mind of Christ but not us........ how do we know that is so? The answer to that is in the next verse where he is exhorting us to acquire the mind of Christ

Philippines 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

The mind of Christ besides having forgiven all the sins committed against us has all the knowledge of God starting with the seven foundational doctrines of He.6 1-3 that after we acquire God willing, will move us into the perfection that includes the removing of the law of sin in us........ until then we are to overcome it through the law of faith in us.



 2011/1/7 19:51Profile


"Paul is obviously talking about us living in the Holy Spirit and not the unclean spirit of man yet the Holy Spirit that knows all truth also knows that Paul agrees that sin still lives in man."


"not the unclean spirit of man"

When I read this my mind immediately went to this portion of scripture.

Acts 10:11 And [peter] saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

Acts 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

Acts 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, WHAT GOD HATH CLEANSED, that call not thou common.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we ARE sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 2011/1/7 20:20

Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


Hello Approved

Man is vessel that lives by whatever spirit that is in the heart and if you take away the spirit the body is dead (James 2:26)

All of mankind is made this way but because the spirit of man is an unclean earthly spirit because of sin in it, through the blessing of Pentecost that follows our experience with the Passover sacrifice we are given the Holy Spirit that is a clean heavenly spirit and is part of the free gift of salvation.

When Peter saw that the Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit that now lived in their heart instead of the unclean spirit of man, through that knowledge and what God showed him in the vision Peter knew that the heart of the gentiles was now clean because of Holy Spirit was now living in place of the unclean spirit of man that had been in their heart before they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

For what happens to the old unclean spirit is part of what we are talking about a sin still living in us so please consider the following teaching of Jesus

Matt 12: 43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The unclean spirit doe not have to travel far because the dry places are the dust that our bodies are made of...........Thus Paul said with the flesh he served the sin that till lived in him or with the mind he served God.

The life that is in our heart is seen through the actions taken by the mind that is part of the soul so if the unclean spirit returns to the heart as it does in the teaching of Jesus then the person is worse off then they were before.

Hopefully that explains what you are asking about



 2011/1/7 21:13Profile

 Re: Saint or sinner

Hi Doug,

I apologise if the way I've been replying has only stirred up a sense of injustice in you.

It is clear we hold different views in the meaning of certain verses. I am aware of how long it has taken me to grasp certain scriptures which were mysterious to me for many years, and that you may have further revelation from time to time as I have had, which will open up to you a different view than you have now. There is a brother who posts here sometimes who asks, 'If you haven't changed your mind recently, how do you know you still have one?' The question is lighthearted of course, but may be helpful when reconsidering old things in new light.

Let me also apologise for the length of this post.

With regard to sanctification, I do believe I am sanctified. This has been discussed before on SI by others, and from those discussions I have learned that a better word for 'sanctification' would be 'glorification'; and that the word 'sanctify', means to set apart, or, to be set apart, as a betrothed wife would set herself apart for her betrothed husband. This separation from others for a specific purpose is the same picture as in the Temple, where certain vessels were 'set apart' for 'holy' uses. These vessels still had to undergo other preparation, but they were ALREADY 'holy', or 'sanctified'.

Regarding 'glorification', there is an inherent association with death and suffering, although these are not mentioned specifically in 2 Cor 3:18.

Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Philipp 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1 Peter 2:20 For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

What I had in mind in quoting Heb 10:14 in the KJV perfect tense, accords with 'sanctification' as a completed work, rather than 'glorfication' as an ongoing process of identifying which Christ and reproach for His name's sake (Heb 13).

However since you say that sin is already destroyed how can you be living in the Holy Spirit

Good question!

I believe the answer lies in 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If there is no truth in us, we are sinners, we sin without conscience. Once we ARE born again, BECAUSE of the Holy Spirit in us, we are alerted to any sins we commit. John goes on to explain how Christ is our Advocate before the Father, in ch 2.

The prior point John has made is that believers do not PRACTISE sin as a lifestyle. Their heart is after Christ and His purity - 1 John 3:3.

With this in mind, the conclusion that you draw about my relationship both with the Holy Spirit and sin, may be incorrect. I don't know if you've looked at Young's Romans 5 and 6 yet, but when you do, you'll find there is a clear difference being made by Paul, between 'the sin', and 'the sins'. Please would you comment on this when you've had time to look at it?

By the way, I agree with what Approved posted of surprise at the suggestion that there is an unclean spirit in man - per se - as you appear to imply. This is not what I've ever heard preached in respect of the unclean spirits which Christ cast out of various people. It seems that most Christians believe that after the unclean spirits had been cast out, the person was in their right mind. And example would be Legion. Manifestly, he could not have been born again at that time, but he didn't have an 'unclean spirit of man' either.

This is an intersting verse though, which goes along with the unclean spirits of the land which God associates with idolatry in other parts of the Old Testament:

Zechariah 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

You asked me previously to consider Matt 12 and Luke 11, and I did. As I understand it, these are not a description of EVERY man. Rather, they are teaching on those men who have had an unclean or evil spirit cast out of them. We in the Church would tend to believe Jesus intended a person should receive the Holy Spirit in place of the unclean spirit(s). Obviously, (I think), if the man's human spirit had gone out of him, he would be physically dead. This does not seem to be what Jesus meant.

look how he speaks of the mind of Christ that destroyed sin at the Cross

This construction on 1 Corinthians 2:16 is unknown to me.

I believe that Christ overcame Satan, AND, that by His death, 'the sin' was destroyed - as well as His bearing the wrath of God for OUR sins which He 'tasted', when it was all laid upon Him by His Father, while on the cross.

Right at the beginning of your post, you've used the phrase 'spirit of the life of Jesus Christ'. I'm not sure what you mean by this, because it is slightly different from Paul's phrase 'the LAW of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus'. In a different place, Paul writes about the 'law of faith'. Are you saying these two laws are one and the same, or merely drawing attention to their relationship to each other?

 2011/1/7 21:33


Alive to God,

This is a bit off the subject, but I been pondering something related to what you said about glorification, after trying to learn about headcoverings.

I noticed women's submission first to parents, which then passes to the submission to her husband is compared to Jesus submission to The Father. Because women came out of man as Jesus came out of The father.

I have received a teaching passed along by a sister here, that Satan is always about domination. Satan sort to be equal to God, and was cast out of the heavens. Eve believed the lies of Satan, sort the same and was cast out of the garden.

The kingdom of God always seems to be about submission, humbling yourself, suffering for another. The son glorifies the Father, and in turn The Father glorifies the son.

We must submit to be glorified, the women to the man, the man to Jesus, Jesus to the father.

Is this how you see glorification or am I on the wrong track?

 2011/1/8 0:38

Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


Good Morning AtG

you may have further revelation from time to time as I have had, which will open up to you a different view than you have now. There is a brother who posts here sometimes who asks, 'If you haven't changed your mind recently, how do you know you still have one?'

God gave us His Laws for many good reasons and part of that is so that we can prove that our understanding is from Him and not from the mind of man. Should I ever change my understanding that has already passed the litmus test it will come about lawfully and in accordance to His Laws for determining the truth and not the opinion of any person(s). I only seek to please God and while I would prefer not to offend anyone, if that comes to be through me doing things God's Way then so be it.

You say that you are fully sanctified then I say because God does not change there is no reason why the works that have been done by others that have been sanctified and approved by God should not be seen coming from you.

The Apostles understood that many would become swayed by the traditions of man that make the Word of God to be of no effect that has produced the powerless church that we have today. James made it very clear that if one cannot show "faith with works" that are divine and done by God and not by man, then their faith is only capable producing "dead works" (works that are not divine in nature) that any fully sanctified Christian should be far beyond.

Satan has gone to great lengths to convince the church that miracles and signs and wonders are no longer following those whom God has chosen and unfortunately has succeeded more often than not. However those who know otherwise know that His ministry is not a ministry of signs and wonders but a ministry of truth that is always followed by signs and wonders.

Signs and wonders do not mean that a ministry is approved of by God but any ministry approved of by God either reveals the power of His presence or God is not there....... for those that are offended by that remark would do better to be concerned for themselves and their flock as to the reason why God has somehow overlooked them

When you care to share either privately or publicly your experiences of the signs and wonders are that are following your ministry I would love to hear about them



 2011/1/8 5:19Profile


"Signs and wonders do not mean that a ministry is approved of by God but any ministry approved of by God either reveals the power of His presence or God is not there."

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you BY miracles and wonders and signs, which God did BY him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.

When you say "God has given us His Laws". Which laws are we to observe and put into practise?

 2011/1/8 8:50

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