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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Saint or sinner

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lesserlight, I recommend you do a word study on Romans 6:6. You 'might' find that 'might' is not in there.

Rom 6:6 KnowingG1097 this,G5124 thatG3754 ourG2257 oldG3820 manG444 is crucified withG4957 him, thatG2443 theG3588 bodyG4983 of sinG266 might be destroyed,"G2673" that henceforthG3371 weG2248 should not serveG1398 sin.G266

To put it bluntly without the signs and wonders that proves the presence of Christ within, what we are looking at in Christians who think that they do not have sin in them is an impostor that looks like Christ and we all know who that is.

This does not sound anything like the Apostles teaching.

Christ has given us all the potential to not sin and Jesus stressed "our walk" with Him FAR ABOVE our ability to "cast out demons" or etc. Luke 10:20
Also in that, there are Far more Scriptures describing what our 'character' should be, than there are Scriptures demanding us to prove our salvation by signs & wonders.

I see that Alive-to-GOD did an excellent job in this last post that covers the rest of any replies.

 2011/1/6 19:29

Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134



God does not change and it is Him working the miracles and not the person!!!!!!

Acts 19: 11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

LOL...... For sure one thing I have noticed is that everyone whom God does not work signs and wonder through are the first ones to claim that Satan is doing the signs and wonders when the Bible tells us that by their fruit you shall know them......... why do you think it works that way David?

Jesus said that the works that He did were His Fathers works so it was with the Apostles and I happen to agree with them both........ do you disagree???? please be very specific!

James truly said that faith without being proved through works is dead and I agree with him ........ what about you?

Satan cannot raise the dead yet I have seen the dead raised and have plenty of witnesses to prove what I say but did I raise the dead? No I did not but God did it through me simply because I do not have the wall of sin in me made up of the false doctrines currently taught by the church that people who do not see the works of God believe in ....... but then you turn around and rather then help lead a babe in Christ come to the truth that sin still lives in us after we have been given the Holy Spirit given evidence through the two or more witnesses such as how Paul, John, Jesus, God and the Apostles repeatedly said are the base of the foundation of truth........ Amen?........ I think so.

Granted that AtG did provide two witnesses but she failed to consider EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM GOD that is one of the commandment of Jesus because she did not consider the verses that I gave her for her edification.... thus she fell into error because she does not study the OT laws of God.

God delights in showing His power through those who worship in spirit and in truth........ He has always done so from the OT through the NT and anyone who defies that truth is calling the power of the Holy Spirit to be a liar......

After all David....... THAT IS HOW GOD HAS ALWAYS IDENTIFIED WHO ARE HIS CHOSEN FROM THE UNBELIEVERS......... do you agree or not ?????????

Now that you have entered into this this tell me something........ do the words "by their fruits you shall know them" mean anything to you???????

Thanks in advance for your reply


 2011/1/6 20:08Profile


Sin was rendered inoperative; it was not longer capable of exerting itself. The only escape for the slavery of sin is through the death of the old sinful nature. The old man is such a hopeless case that God has no remedy for him. God cannot send him to church, or teach him the ten commandments or make him religious. God merely executes him. That is the only solution for the old man - the old Adam.

The mercy of God is that the execution took place in the person of Jesus on the cross. If you know that and place reliance on it, it works. But if you do not know it, you cannot place reliance on it, and it will not work. If you know it, but do not place reliance on it, it still will not work. It is the knowing and the relying that makes it work.

(Derek Prince - Entering the presence of God)

 2011/1/6 20:18


I believe in ALL of the gifts and will go so far as to say that any one person can be used in all within his lifetime - IF GOD Wills.... but the "fruits" that you bring up is the person's Christian 'Character' ....

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As far as what is written - Just in Romans 6 alone - I feel to post the complete chapter for clarification.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 2011/1/6 20:19

Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


This does not sound anything like the Apostles teaching.

Was James not an Apostle or do you think that the works that he was speaking of that proved the faith in Him to be from God were just simple acts of kindness that the unbelievers of the world produce through all their gifts to charities?............ please be specific.

If someone is in harmony with God He show His miraculous powers through them............ and throughout the Bible that is ALWAYS what has defined God's chosen from the unbelievers of the world!

Now do you still stand behind what you said or are you willing to accept the truth?



 2011/1/6 21:00Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


We must come to the understanding of who and what we are in Christ. The flesh can die and the soul and spirit live on.
The soul is our learning center, the spirit identifies us as to who we are, as persons of the soul "a living soul" or persons of the Spirit, "a life giving Spirit", one is dead in Adam the last is alive in Christ. The soul is where the Holy Spirit works, to conform us to the Mind of Christ, ever learning who we are in Christ. The Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit, but the life giving Spirit that is rebirthed in the believer, "a new creature in Christ", "Christ who lives in me" etc, who cannot die or sin. The Spirit of Christ in the believer cannot sin, die, or anything else that is contrary to God's intended purpose before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Born again in Spirit, being born again in the soul/mind, and will be born again when we receive our new body of flesh and bone, like His glorious body.

The soul can still sin, when we walk in the flesh, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and we acknowledge His work and hate the sin and repent and confess. 1 John 1:9

The Spirit of Christ that is in us cannot sin; Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Without the Spirit of Christ;

2 Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Separating the spirit, soul and body is where we understand who we are in Christ, by His Spirit alive unto God. In our soul/mind, learning to overcome the old man mind we still have and are still capable of sinning in the flesh, but not in the Spirit, which is Christ who cannot sin. The Mind of Christ in whom we now live is overcoming our fleshly mind by the Holy Spirit Teacher Parakleet who brings all things to mind that Jesus said, says and will say. These old man mind body pulls can still raise havoc in our lives, but as Paul says, Who will set me free from this body of sin, Praise God through Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:18-20 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, (minds) both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; (Spirit) Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (Spirit controlled)I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh (old body pulls) the law of sin.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In Christ: Phillip


 2011/1/6 21:24Profile

 Re: Saint or sinner

Are believers in Christ a saint and sinner or a saint who is sometimes sinning or...? What's our identity? Because the old men died, new creation is there. So it's not I but sin in me. How do you guys look at this?

It's easy to speak theory, it's easy to say that we are dead to sin and alive unto God. There are a lot of good answers here from Lesserlight and Alive to God. AtG is bold in his attempt and I can see what lesserlight is trying to say.

Is there anyone here that can really say that they are completely dead to sin and alive unto God?

I know what the bible declares us to be, but the question is, do we believe it?

And I will be the first to admit, I do not.

Even though I believe what the bible says is true that we died with Christ, and therefore art become dead to this flesh, yet in reality my flesh is very much alive.

I know that there is a darkness over my eyes keeping me from seeing the fullness of this truth. I say again, it's easy to quote the verses, but it's not easy for it to be a reality in one's life.

Perhaps someone could take the time to explain it in the most simplistic terms.

 2011/1/6 22:24


It's just minute by minute or moment by moment 'choices' that add up to our final character.
What and where we allow our minds to go. Where we spend our thought life.
That's all I believe Brother Approved.

This is a good one.

GOD Bless!

 2011/1/6 23:01

Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860

 Re: Saint or sinner

In response to the Orginal post.

I believe we are before people go all crazy and say this is an impossiblity please understand we all come from different backgrounds and understanding. We are all progressively growing closer to our Saviour and Lord and will progressively learn and understand Who He is and Who we are in Him.

I believe we are Human and being human quite Fallible and capable of mistakes.

I believe that Christ died on the Cross to make a way to the Father for us. We as Christians, if we want access to the Father or communion and fellowship with the Father must access Him through the Son (Christ Jesus).

I believe we ourselves have ZERO Righteousness of our own, Our Righteousness is by Faith in Christ Jesus, ultimately HE is our Righteousness.

Without Christ there is no argument we are nothing and helpless. Its important that we look at the Word Saint and truly understand what this is talking about.

When someone thinks of Saint, they think of Holy, Perfect, Righteous, a Stand up guy/girl, pure, and etc, etc. Are humans this? Well I am a Christian and I would say I am definitely No Saint if this is the standing definition of Saint. However there is another definition for saint which simply means this, Set Apart, if we are set apart for Christ Jesus then by that definition we are a Saint.

There is a distinct difference between a sinner and saint and that is Nature or Additude. The Additude of a Sinner is I Love my sin and I will stay in it, the additude of the Saint however has a hatred for sin in their life and when they sin they don't rejoice but mourn.

The call of the Christian life is this, To Come to the Father through Christ Jesus by Faith. I believe in order to come to the Father requires a radical turning of some type this turning is away from Sin. The "saint" is progressively walking to Christ and as he/she walks to Christ they become more like Him.

We are all on the same Path if we are all Christians ie the Narrow One, but we must remember we are all very possibly on different places of this path some are further and some are way behind (myself) Some of us who are just leaving the World will find it a battle to get the worlds grips out of our skin and we will struggle with sin and at times even enjoy it *GASP* but ultimately the Holy Spirit convicts and corrects us through His various avenues.

Ultimately my point is this I have seen many people claim Sainthood and do it in the most proud and boisterous way as if THEY have achieved something wonderous to deserve such a title. Unfortunately the weight of a Saints sin is the same as a Sinners and so no merit can be given to the person for such a title. Christ takes SINNERS and progressively forms us into Saints however its all by Grace and Faith.

I believe I am a Saint in Christ but that's it nothing of myself warrants or merits this so its nothing I can boast about or parade around. I am a sinner by my human nature because I still live in my fleshly self, and will continue to live in this flesh till I die and will battle it until I die. I believe also I won't take the authority of Christ in calling myself a Saint from God the Father but will allow Him to make that decision because ultimately its His decision not mine.

We see that most of the famous last words of quite a few Godly Men were to the effects of I AM A WORM or I AM NOTHING etc etc, They knew their place and who they were.

I hope that clears something up for you :)

Matthew Guldner

 2011/1/6 23:50Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7515


Excellent post, Matthew.

Saint vs sinner...I wonder what difference it would make in our spirit if we would allow ourselves to think of ourselves as being saints?

Ever notice how many times the Epistle writers refer to the Believers as saints? Not sinners but saints. According to e-Sword a saint is defined as: "hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint."

Too many times we think of saints as individuals who have achieved a god-like status, set apart - far above anything we hope to achieve. Yet 2 Cor.3:18 (NASB) describes something quite different: "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."

This transforming process can get quite unruly at take courage, saints...


Sandra Miller

 2011/1/7 3:58Profile

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