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mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Welp no need to sidetrack this thread. I see you are unwilling just as I am unwilling to budge on my stance on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind Faith, Hope, and Love are the Greater gifts and are the ones we are to seek diligently.

May I ask though one that isn't Baptist, as you say, are they saved from eternal hell?


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2011/1/11 8:37Profile
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:

Quote:
May I ask though one that isn't Baptist, as you say, are they saved from eternal hell?



Neither am I Baptist or for that matter any of the mainstream denominational belief system.

However as far as eternal hell goes the doctrine of eternal judgment is one of the required foundational doctrines of He. 6 needed to posses the knowledge of and the order that they are given to us in is for a good reason.......... and if you look you will see that eternal judgement is the last one listed and is far far away from where we have so far gotten to in this thread.

BTW concerning your beliefs on the "only evidence" of the Holy Spirit I am curious as to how you support your position scripturally?

Blessings

Doug

 2011/1/11 9:08Profile









 Re:

Doug read 2Corinthians 5:21 again...

For our sake he made him who knew no sin to be sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Who knew no sin? Jesus Christ.

Jesus took on all of our sinfulness, so we could be made righteous in him.

 2011/1/11 9:14









 Re: Saint or sinner

mguldner, welcome to the thread. I enjoyed your post :)

Doug, you said

Quote:
When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they ate the fruit where the seed is and within that fruit were the seeds of the knowledge of both good and evil. Consequently and because the law of the seed that is one of the laws of God, anyone can produce either good or evil.

I noted your comment from Hosea about knowledge. On checking Hosea's mention of 'the knowledge of God', I note God also desires mercy.

Regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it was this which the law was sent to address. Earlier in the thread I quoted John Baptist saying. 'Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.' (Also Luke 3:9)

These verses clearly show that Christ expects only one kind of fruit from one kind of tree. Expressly He states elsewhere, that, 'Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? (Matt 7:16) This is clear also from Genesis 1. No tree would produce two kinds of seed. Likewise 'the knowledge of good and evil' is only ONE seed, not two.

That's why John's use of the singular for 'root', rather than roots, is most interesting. He is indicating just one tree - the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - which in humankind can be seen as many 'trees'.

This understanding concurs with the assertion some of us are making, that in Christ, the root of this tree was severed for ever by God, so that now men are free to come and eat again of the Tree of Life, Jesus Christ, and be eligible for re-admission to the ETERNAL life from which Adam's descendants were barred back in Eden, until the serpent's head had been fatally bruised.

In His mercy, God, looking forward to Calvary, continued His relationship with mankind, permitted Himself to give forgiveness of sins through the keeping of the law, and thus and by many other proofs, to make His kindness known to man down through the preceding centuries.

EDIT: Note also, the law only applied to Israel. Before Abraham, Noah was alive, keeping the whole population of the world aware of the knowledge of God. Job was one of those. Then, there is a liberal sprinkling of Gentiles throughout Israelite history to whom God was known, to whom God spoke, and who also appear in Christ's genealogy. They also appear in the New Testament - Samaritans and others. God was merciful to all.

Ephesians 2: 1 - 7
And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.




 2011/1/11 9:36
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3421
This world is not my home anymore.

 no seed? no tree


Lesserlight,

Where does this ‘no seed? no tree” stuff come from? I looked it up and the only thing that came up was prosperity teachers; one in particular kept, Robert G. Allen; is that what you believe? Are you a word of faith type of Christian?


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Lisa

 2011/1/11 9:40Profile
StarofG0D
Member



Joined: 2007/10/28
Posts: 1232
United States

 Re:

Quote:
Granted love and joy etc etc are to be present but one does NOT have to have Christ within them to display what you are saying are the" ONLY" evidence of the Holy Spirit and I hope for your sake that you are able to grasp that.



Neither does one need the Holy Spirit to "speak in tongues."

I have always been taught that as the apostles on Pentecost, the primary evidence of the Holy Spirit, is power. Power to overcome sin and self.

Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, after that Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea...."

Love, joy, peace, temperance, longsuffering, gentleness, goddness, faith, meekness are the fruit of an overcoming life. It is what will flow out of a person that is walking in Christ and overcoming the self life. Crucified with Christ.

Other verses:1 Cor 2:5 1 cor 4:19-20 2 Tim 3:5


_________________
Michelle

 2011/1/11 9:53Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3421
This world is not my home anymore.

 what did Jesus say?



Quote:
Quote:

The ONLY Evidence of Holy Spirit baptism that lines up with ALL of Scripture is the Fruit of the Spirit Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness,Faithfulness, Goodness, and Self Control. These are the only marks of evidence we find in scripture. The Gifts are gifts not evidence.


Mgulder........ thank you for your reply but unfortunately you have been decieved.


mguldner is not deceived. In Matthew 7 Jesus did NOT say that we would know false teachers and false prophets, “by their gifts.” No, He did not!

The correct Scripture is, “"So then, you will know them by their FRUITS.”


_________________
Lisa

 2011/1/11 9:58Profile
knitefall
Member



Joined: 2010/3/2
Posts: 252


 Re: what did Jesus say?

I like chicken.

 2011/1/11 10:27Profile
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:

Quote:
How in the world have you concluded that the flesh of man is the same as the spirit of man?



Well what spirit do you think it is that gives life to the natural man because a body without a spirit is dead........ period and no if ands or buts about it. (james 2;26)

Suggest you read the the teaching of the unclean spirit in Matt and Luke 11 and get a handle on the truth of the spirit and soul of the "natural man" that without any spirit within them is as dead a someone who has been dead for thousand years.

In that teaching you will see where the unclean spirit when he goes "out from the man" (the life is in the blood and the blood is pumped by the heart which is where whatever spirit resides that is ruling over the person) he then wanders in the dry places that is the dust that your physical flesh is made of where he then runs into the wicked friend that are the human senses that get people in trouble today just as it got Adam and Even in trouble

In 1Cor 15 Paul speak of the the different types of flesh that either appear before the throne of God or likened to christians (fish) ....... now do you possibly think that there are animals sitting around the throne in heaven in Revelations as God's personal pets or just maybe that God is being pictured ruling over the different natures of man that appear allegorically a different animal throughout the scriptures through ....... for your sake I hope that your belief is in the latter.

BTW in your other post why are speaking about a word that does not exit in the passage in question?

Blessings

Doug



 2011/1/11 10:30Profile









 Re: Saint or sinner


Hi Doug,

One of the difficulties your doctrines present to Bible believing Christians, is that from time to time you blatantly disagree with scripture.

No-one is doctrinally safe who cherry-picks the verses they like, ignoring the rest. This is less of an issue when one knows the Author of the Book and trusts Him - which I am not suggesting you don't - but if claiming to, I admonish you do need to consider how He may interpret your tossing away some of His written revelations.

Quote:
Jesus never became sin....... He became a sin offering for us and was only able to do so because He had no sin

2 Corinthans 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Tyndale alludes to the sin-offering in his New Testament. An elder brother replied to a query about this, in the following thread:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=12196&forum=36&post_id=

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

In Hebrew thought, the whole is implied by the mention of a part. Thus, the phrase 'TASTE death' has the import of drinking the whole draught of death.

We know from Romans 5:12 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned', that 'the death' (YLT) was the impact of 'the sin' to which Paul is alluding.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

{thou shalt surely...: Heb. dying thou shalt die}

Could Jesus have abolished 'the death', without also having taken away 'the sin'?

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:



Me personally? I don't think this is up for discussion. But I do realise it may challenge your understanding to date.

We have all been there! As humans, we love to have all our ducks in a row, and feel we have conquered the knowledge of God to our own satisfaction. Happily, GOD is not satisfied, and better still, He loves to rid us of our misapprehensions, as the Bible narrative confirms.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


Regarding speaking in tongues as evidence of new birth, I'm sure you know that there is no mention of it at the time Saul is born again, yet there is no doubt he had had a complete change of mind about Jesus Christ, and that he did speak in tongues later in his ministry. I can testify also, to moving in new gifts as I have gone on in God.

I have wondered if we are mistaken for thinking the sign of speaking in tongues is for others only, rather than for the believer him or herself, as God sees fit to bestow it. I have a friend who came to God from a pentecostal Christian background, who specifically asked God not to give her tongues, but some other less commmon gift. God did not give her tongues, but did give others of the spiritual graces upon her life.

 2011/1/11 10:31





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