| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Also, this is a MUST READ, if you are going to be able to answer those today that are trying to get the Church to "go back to their Jewish Roots". Also, bookmark Peter Cohen's site. This is a Messianic Jew that has many scriptural articles on the Law, Feasts, Midrash, etc.
ANSWER TO JACOB PRASCH'S REBUTTAL OF MIDRASH: THE CAMEL'S NOSE
http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Articles_D/CorrespondencewithJacobPraschMidrash.htm |
|  2010/11/9 11:21 | | Heydave
Member
Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK
| | Re: "Seed" | | Hi Nasher,
I was looking at this as well just over the last week. I believe that the promise Paul is referring to about the Seed (Christ) is Genesis 22:16-18.
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
The reason I think that Paul is referring to 'this' blessing is that it has to do with 'All Nations of the earth' being blessed through The Seed. Paul in Galatians is arguing that salvation is through FAITH and not by law and that the blessing of Abraham come on the GENTILES (Nations) through Christ Jesus, so by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Gal 3:14 (not the promises concerning land, but the receiving of the Spirit). Note Gentiles and Nations are interchangeable words.
This verse is very important as it shows what Paul is meaning by the 'blessing of Abraham' through the Seed.
When we consider Genesis 22:16-18 it is very profound that at the point Abraham offers up his son (Issac), God in response Himself promises the sending of His son (Jesus Christ) as the promised Seed who 'will bless all nations'!
A parallel teaching is found in the book of Hebrews in particular ch.6:13-20.
Hbr 6:13 ¶ For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Hbr 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Hbr 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
Hbr 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation [is] to them an end of all strife.
Hbr 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath:
Hbr 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Hbr 6:19 Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Hbr 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
This confirms that the promise comes to 'we.... who have fled for refuge to to lay hold upon the hope set before us', ...to Jesus our high priest.
What an amazing thing to behold, Jesus is the fulfilment of the promise God made to Abraham to bless the Nations (or Gentiles) and giving them His Spirit. This is in essence the New covenant that Jesus is now the mediator of to all those who receive Him. For in Him (Jesus) are all the promises of God (2 cor 1:20) and we are complete in Him (Col 2:10).
Hallelujah!!
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Dave
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| | 2010/11/9 15:55 | Profile | twayneb
Member
Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri
| | Re: "Seed" | | Nasher, I am ignorant of a Midrash, but I am not ignorant of the commentary the New Testament makes on this topic. Romans and Galatians as well as Hebrews I believe have a lot of commentary on this topic. My advice...Do some dividing of the Word. Where Paul makes it clear that God was speaking of the seed being Christ, assume it so and read it that way. Where Paul does not make it clear that the seed is Christ and it sounds as if he is talking about the people of physical Israel, interpret it that way. On that note however, wasn't Christ in Israelite? Additionally, there is a seed of Abraham through faith in Christ. To we who are in that class are promises as well. The physical land, however, is reserved for the Jewish people in my opinion.
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Travis
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| | 2010/11/9 17:37 | Profile |
| | Re: "Seed" | | Look at the "SEED" as the Holy Seed of God." The Crown of Creation is God's Proclamation or Promise [ to Himself and all Creation] that a Holy people would inherit Himself, and His attributes; ETERNAL LIFE...[ and the absolute eradication of DEATH...]
There was a company before Abraham, Israel after, and those joined to Israel, and then the Church. All begins and ends with God, and remember that Christ Jesus is and always was Jahweh the SON; God as a man.
This very God-man appeared to confirm His promise to Abraham, His seed.
Hebrews 7
The King of Righteousness
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, meaning king of peace,
3 WITHOUT father, WITHOUT mother, WITHOUT genealogy, having NEITHER beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the...... Son of God,...... remains a priest continually.[FOREVER]
{This is identifying Jesus and His eternal Stature.]
4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils.
5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham;
6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better.
8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives.
9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak,
10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.[c]
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is thebringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
[Greatness of the New Priest]
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:
The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek
24 But He, because He continues FOREVER, has an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He [ Jesus] always lives to make intercession for them.[AT THE RIGHT HAND OF HIS FATHER]
This is the Primary connection to the promise of Abraham, His holy seed; JESUS; His own Father's [JAHWEH'S] holy seed, AND YET WHOLY GOD. He created the Seed, and is the SEED within Himself.
Very insightfull, meditative inquisition, NASHER.
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| | 2010/11/9 18:12 | |
| | Re: | | Sorry, but that rebuttal was just not scholarly in the slightest. Instead of dealing with the historical and cultural points presented he just makes a sort of blanket statement like, " He denies that YOU, dear reader, can come to a COMPLETE understanding of ALL that God deeds to us through the Bible, if all you have in your possession is a KJV without notes (without Midrash, without Eidersheim, without Josephus). You be the judge." That may work in some circles, but not the ones who take historical Biblical critique seriously. It was obvious that some of the points that he was replying to (which he even sometimes admitted ignorance to) many times went strait over his head, yet he tried to refute them nonetheless.
And calling something "irrelevant verbiage" when it very well addresses the issue, makes the defender just look silly, since it's obviously not clicking with him.
I would suggest people go do their own research.
This has nothing to do with "going back to our Jewish roots" or the HRM or anything like that. It's trying to understand the Scriptures as they were written. By Jews, about a Jewish religion and a Jewish God.
This concept makes even more sense now that I live in a foreign country and culture. If I tried to understand Japanese culture with my American mindset, I'd not only be missing out on major points, but I could never be taken seriously if I tried to explain my stance. But we can all continue to pretend that Christianity is a White American and European Gospel and should be understood that way, since that seems to be the force that spread it the best, if we like.
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| | 2010/11/9 18:57 | |
| | Re: "Seed" | | Quote:
this is a MUST READ, if you are going to be able to answer those today that are trying to get the Church to "go back to their Jewish Roots".
Hi Pilgrim,
I want to comment on your statement here, because of the colossal amount of Hebrew in the paper I posted on baptism, just in case you think I'm 'trying to get the church to go to their Jewish Roots'.
There are a few things, really, which perhaps ought to be said. For instance, the person who wrote that paper is a missionary to orthodox Jews. That's his calling. So, like Paul, who was finally arrested by Jews when he was in the Temple keeping a vow he'd made, that missionary is keen to draw Jews in to 'Moshiach's Judaism' as he calls it, because it is the genuine continuation which God designed for Jews, when the Old Covenant was over.
For those who are not Jews, the keeping of any feasts or rituals may or may not seem relevant to them, but, how can it be a sin to do so, whatever their natural roots? What, say, a Gentile Christian marries a Jewish Christian who feels more comfortable celebrating Messiah in this way, does the Bible prohibit it? I don't think so, but there is always the possibility of losing sight of Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit, if ritual-keeping becomes the focus. However, Protestant Christians are just as guilty of keeping ritual rather than the spirit of the ritual, in their own forms of meeting, quickly developing traditions of their own.
We can all do with less religion and more life!
However, I take the point that Jews who believe in Messiah are Christians, and we are all one together in Christ. We have ALL become 'from above' if we have been born again, and there is a constant tension, despite Paul's explanation to the Galatians, for Jews who find it difficult to accept there may not be a 'below' for them, in Christ, just as there isn't a 'below' for non-Jewish Christians.
With regard to baptism as the apostles understood it, its Jewish origin is utterly relevant. Without it, non-Jewish Christians are in danger of making up their own religion, and this may account for the large number of church attenders who have not really decided to follow Jesus.
We need a bit more of Acts 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. |
| | 2010/11/9 19:26 | | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | 1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again <anagennao>, not <ou> of <ek> corruptible <phthartos> seed <spora>, but <alla> of incorruptible <aphthartos>, by <dia> the word <logos> of God <theos>, which liveth <zao> and <kai> abideth <meno> for <eis> ever <aion>. For <dioti> all <pas> flesh <sarx> is as <hos> grass <chortos>, and <kai> all <pas> the glory <doxa> of man <anthropos> as <hos> the flower <anthos> of grass <chortos>. The grass <chortos> withereth <xeraino>, and <kai> the flower <anthos> thereof <autos> falleth away <ekpipto>: But <de> the word <rhema> of the Lord <kurios> endureth <meno> for <eis> ever <aion>. And <de> this <touto> is <esti> the word <rhema> which <ho> by the gospel is preached <euaggelizo> unto <eis> you <humas>.
Christ is the Seed of rebirth, He being in a body made of a woman, no longer, but now with the Sperma of God our Father, the parenting Seed. He is The Word of God the incorruptable Seed.
corruptible <phthartos> seed <spora>, but <alla> of incorruptible <aphthartos>, by <dia> the word <logos> of God <theos>, which liveth <zao> and <kai> abideth <meno> for <eis> ever <aion>.
Strong's Greek Dictionary
3056. logos
Search for G3056 in KJVSL
logoV logos log'-os
from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):
John 1:1-4 In <en> the beginning <arche> was <en> the Word <logos>, and <kai> the Word <logos> was <en> with <pros> God <theos>, and <kai> the Word <logos> was <en> God <theos>. The same <houtos> was <en> in <en> the beginning <arche> with <pros> God <theos>. All things <pas> were made <ginomai> by <dia> him <autos>; and <kai> without <choris> him <autos> was <ginomai> not <oude> any thing <heis> made <ginomai> that <hos> was made <ginomai>. In <en> him <autos> was <en> life <zoe>; and <kai> the life <zoe> was <en> the light <phos> of men <anthropos>.
"The Word", same Logos; was <en> the Word <logos>, and <kai> the Word <logos> was <en> with <pros> God <theos>, and <kai> the Word <logos> was <en> God <theos>.
The seed of a woman, the ovum. The Seed of the Father, the parentage spora, or sperma of God.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2010/11/9 20:29 | Profile | ADisciple
Member
Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada
| | Re: | | Quote:
To read the rest of this excellent article from a Messianic Jew, please go here. This brother, Peter Cohen, I believe, sees it correctly.
Thanks, Pilgrim, for this link. I haven't of course been able to check out all that's on their website but I believe you're right in saying Peter Cohen gets it correctly.
That's refreshing!
...But I do wish the Messianic Jews would be happy enough to be called Christians like the rest of us, and like the early church themselves (who were Jews, many of them). Or even Messianics, that would be fine.
Why is it necessary to proclaim what the apostle Paul called loss? Or is there still some glorying in the natural heritage, maybe?
Am I a Messianic Gentile, for example? ...No, no point in saying that: no glory in being a Gentile. :) ...Although I guess I could boast in my natural heritage even as a Gentile, and begin glorying in my ancestry...
...And I started to lay it out here, but felt a check in my spirit and erased it. No advantage in that!
No, together, both Jew and Gentile, we have been created in Christ Jesus ONE NEW MAN, bonded together in the love of Christ.
"If any man be in Christ he is a NEW CREATION...
Wow.
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Allan Halton
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| | 2010/11/10 0:12 | Profile |
| | Re: | | I have been very refreshed by his articles. I don't know, I should check. I am not sure if he calls himself a Messianic Jew or not. It's ok by me if he does that to reach other Jews.
I have known many "Messianics" and the ones that are not into the HRM (Hebrew Roots Movement) have no problem being called a Christian. So, maybe like Paul they are just using the name to reach other Jews.
Thanks, bro. |
| | 2010/11/10 0:21 | | Nasher
Member
Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK
| | Re: | | The attitude of some people in this thread has greived me, are we not supposed to be one?
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:20-21)
Whatever you want to call yourself - Christian, Messianic, Believer, it doesn't really matter, what matters is:
you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christs, then you are Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29)
I don't know where we go from here, all I want to do is know what God is saying through His word.
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Mark Nash
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| | 2010/11/10 3:13 | Profile |
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