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 Re:

Just reiterating.

The Key to understanding God's Word is to come to it with your whole heart and determined to not be joined to anything else in your heart but Him.

If you don't come to the Word of God with your whole heart, determining to tear down idols that the Holy Spirit shows you, then YOU ARE JUST GOING TO HAVE A RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE and you will not have discernment. A veil will remain over your spiritual eyes. You will have no understanding and will stumble in the light of day. You will not see the battle and eventually you will be destroyed because you refused to get rid of the idols in your heart.

If you refuse the leading of the Holy Spirit and want to be led in some other direction, you will be a prey for the beasts of the field and the birds of the air.

That's Gospel, my friends.

And Satan is going about his business. Nothing new under the sun.

More than a new book, or new sermon, what will really help the church is if they come to the Lord with their whole heart.

 2010/10/30 13:01
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

One reason I brought up the "one man show" in church meetings issue is because I'm sure that some who like the idea of small house gatherings and a plurality of elders are opposed to open participatory meetings.

The reason for that is because they are so used to having one person give an hour long sermon in the meetings. And they are afraid that if they do not have that going on they will devalue the sound preaching/teaching of God's Word.

So they feel that "pulpits" are necessary even in a small house church(I know of at least one brother who feels this way), as opposed to having a meeting where the teaching/preaching from each person is limited in time so that everyone can participate and share, as seen in 1Cor.14.

So the question would be, "Is there a place for one hour long sermons/messages/teachings?" I would say yes, as seen in Acts 19:9-10 at the school of Tyrannus. But even in those "lecture" meetings, it says Paul was reasoning with the people daily. That has the idea of dialogue as opposed to monologue.

I believe that there is a place for hour long messages but not in the regular weekly gatherings of the saints. Some examples of acceptable avenues for such messages would be seminars on certain topics, evangelistic open air meetings, etc.

The problem I see with many who insist on having hour long messages in the regular gatherings is the age old problem of pride, which can be very subtle; the motive of wanting to be in control or authority all the time, without allowing input or participation from others. And one excuse goes something like this,"if we allow everyone to "participate" and share we might have chaos or heresy or a watering down of sound doctrine, because only a special class of Christians should be allowed to share from God's Word." But that kind of thinking is unscriptural IMO.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/10/30 13:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:
if we allow everyone to "participate" and share we might have chaos or heresy or a watering down of sound doctrine, because only a special class of Christians should be allowed to share from God's Word."



And that would be the "ruling" class. The ones that have the Holy Spirit, right?

There is most definitely a place for teaching, but it is not the rule. Today, we have gone so far to the other end of the pendulum that there is a drastic need for 1 Cor 14 meetings because the Church as a whole does not know anything about how to function together as a family unless it is part of some activity or program. But they do nnot know how to be led by the Holy Spirit in a gathering unto the Lord. They only know how to listen to one man preaching. They actually draw their life from that man. It is a very deceptive thing and they would never admit it or even believe it.

They have been fed a spirit of fear (how convenient for the ecclesiasticals to do this) about particapatory meetings, citing heresy and chaos. Well, they are speaking out of ignorance and even manipulation. Ignorance because if they had ever been in a particapatory meeting, they would see the built-in checks and balances that God has created in His family when everyone's voice is honored. Manipulation, because, it does not serve their end. If people found out that they actually could gather around the Lord (not just a phrase) and see Him, touch Him and hear Him in their midst they would leave man's system. Come to think of it, that is exactly what they are doing.

That is not normal in God's family. And, I might add, it is not normal in a human family. We want our kids to grow up as functional/mature adults. We don't want them to be dependent on some other man and always asking them how to live their lives.

On the contrary, when we see a father, who is controlling his wife and family to the point where they have no voice we say he is being very legalistic and patriarchal. We fathers and mothers know that, that is not a healthy sign when a father tells his kids, even when 20 years old, what to do and how to do it, and who to marry and when to marry.
(Sorry, Mr. Gothard).

Praise the Lord, He is alive and able to lead us and Father us, and counsel, guide, instruct, shepherd, comfort, etc, etc. And all that He does for us and in us we share with each other.

Do you know the story of Mephibosheth? Let me change it around a bit.

I thought it was so nice and caring that David not only made a place for Mephib at his table, but then he also spoon fed him every meal.

Mephib, you are not at my table to share or talk, you are just here to make me feel noble and let me spoon feed you because you don't have the manners and etiquette of a King's household, so I will always be feeding you. And of course Mephib gets real use to that and loves it. Actually, he may not love it at all, it's just that he has no choice. This is the "kings" house. And that's the problem today. We need to get out of the "kings" house and get into the KING's House.

Thank you JESUS!! We don't have to be polished and eloquent and we are part of the KING'S Household!

 2010/10/30 13:47









 Ginny

i must say in truth aand love that i find your response to Pilgrim, most troubling:

"You are saying so many things that are right, but there is an attitude in your posts I find very troubling...it reminds me of the attitude that was so strong during the Vietnam War era that gave rise to the hippie movement where all forms of authority were challenged and considered suspect. This mindset opened the door to challenge all forms of authority whether it be in the church, government, schools, homes, society, workplace.
I remember this quite well because it was my generation that did it.

Now this mentality has come around again...."

is what you wrote, and i ask you this question in trepidation, because it involves worldly geopolitics, but it also involves the sins of man, AND national sins, but in the light of Truth, i must ask it, because it involves "authority"....and how authority sqaunders their moral currency.

why do you think it was, that the youth of that era, "hippies" as you term them, "challenged" and "considered suspect" "all forms of authority" in that era?

Could it have been that the youth of that era were able to see thru the lies, murder, and hypocrisy foisted upon them as to why we smashed the land of Vietnam? and in the process, 58,000 of our own children killed, 2 million Vietnamese murdered, men, women children...and for what?

It is now proven that President Johnson LIED to the American people, as to what really transpired in the Gulf of Tonkin in 1964. It is now historical fact, that Ho Chi Minh wrote 7 letters to President Truman, where Ho commended the US for defeating the occupying Japanese forces, and begged him to allow Vietnam to be free of their pre-ww2 French colonialists, to determine their own independence. True, Ho was a communist, but he was not beholden to the Soviet Union, right after WW2, Ho was a Vietnamese nationalist, first and foremmost, but instead President Truman didnt even respond, and instead allowed the French to re-seize their "colonial possession", subjugating a people who's only wish was to be out from under the yoke of foreign oppression, whether it be japanese or french. Isnt that the freedoms we desired in 1776?

and you don't think our young people could discern the foulness of these lies? Lies that were given at every level of our government. and once "authorities" squander their currency by falsehoods, our children are become disillusioned, especially when many "leaders" in the church, serve as cheerleaders to provide spiritual covering to the very sin of conquest and murder, under the rubric of fighting "godless communism"?

which in the final analysis, collapsed at the Hand of God, excepting of course, the peoples republic of China, who now make all the consumer "stuff" we buy, filling our stores, they buy our bonds.

Of course, such hellish sin-soaked authority is to be considered "suspect", as such lies, deceit and murder continue to this very day.

as much as we submit ourselves to rigorous self examination in the Holy Ghost, should not these backslidden, corrupt, fleshly religious institution do the same?

yes, but will they, or do they enjoy the "best seats at the table" more? the praise of the "crowd" more?...to be a "friend of herod" more?

you know the answer to that.

they are marked for destruction, for fire, just as this nation is marked for destruction, for not only the sin of casting their children into the fire(abortion), or for men and women having sexual appetites contray to what God deemed right, but also for adopting the national soulset of babylon, conquest, subujgation, theft and murder, worshiping a flag, worshiping weapons,and having the witless sin of wrapping Jesus in this flag.

If we are going to call sin out in the sqaure, call ALL national sin out, and repent of it all.

But the most hideous of all, is that we've become a nation that has fashioned a "golden calf" in place of God. we worship money, things, stuff to buy, comfort, and as you see now, 2010, God is breaking that golden calf in front of our eyes, we, as nation have lost our Bearings, and God will salt us with fire.

So if young people, some not knowing Messiah, can see the lies and hypocrisy of "authority", we who are in Christ are tasked by God, even more, to challenge the darkness of man's vile sinfullness, with fearlessness and Truth, not to give covering to it....and that includes any authorities, who play games with Jesus.

if this seemed like a political post, you've read my heart wrong. Whether it be in my own life, our nations lifes, our church life, be fearless, and fear not death, to shout out from the rooftops the totality of sin.

the north american evangelical church has failed the LORD grievously in this, for many have fornicated with babylon, and drank of the cup of that foul whore. For that we all pay.



 2010/10/30 14:41









 Re: Ginny

Yep, authority in and of itself is not holy. All the kingdoms and authorities of this world exist at the behest of God. Even the religious "authorities". But the religious authorities are also part of the world system, Babylon.

God raises His children to think! And the first thing that He tells us in order to make us good thinkers is to love Him with all our heart and have no idols before Him. He teaches us that the fear of man is a snare and to seek His honor and not man's. That will free you up to be a good thinker and ask questions. The word WHY is a good word. More of us should ask WHY.

God's makes thinkers and lifts them up from being sheeple.

Interesting, that out of the Vietnam war protests, the Jesus people movement was birthed. The Holy Spirit surely was moving in people's hearts. I was born-again in 1977 and spent my early years in Berkeley, CA. I was privileged to meet with ex-hippies, moonies, krishnas and tarot card readers.

But by and by, the enemy brought the church back in under the thumb of man. How can this be? Oh, so tragic and sad.

We now call church which is not church and we call Jesus who is not Jesus. Do we have any idea who the real Jesus is and what the real church looks like? Brothers and sisters, let us contend earnestly.

The accusation was, you are not part of a church with
"mature spiritual leadership" and so they joined and slowly but surely became disillusioned with man's system.

I was thinking just now, as I was putting a coat of stain on my deck, that when you are part of a group of believers where mutuality exists and everyone is equal, (that is on the same plane) then there really is no chance for one man to take over and lead everyone astray. Yet, the opposite is propagated to the masses.

For each one is head of their household and when they come together there is no other Head but Christ.

It is a spurious accusation to say that house churches will go into error.

Now, I will grant you that house churches and any other type of gathering, that gather unto a leader other than Jesus will go into error, just like the IC. I can name very good movements down through the last 33 years that gathered unto a man and everyone thought it was good, but it ended up in error.

So, let's be clear, we are not talking about duplicating the institutional church in the living room. We are talking about new wine skins, not patching old ones.

I hope by now everyone knows that we are talking about the Lord Jesus by His Holy Spirit having His rightful place in the midst of the Church, no clergy/laity distinctions and we are all brethren.

This is a foreign concept to most, I understand. Please don't react, though. I don't want anyone to receive anything unless the Lord confirms it in His Word and by His Spirit to you.

No one should ever receive anything from a man, unless those conditions are met.

God bless everyone,
Pilgrim

 2010/10/30 15:16









 Re: Ginny

Ginny, don't worry about it. I have not taken offense. I understand how you may think I am rebellious. I am sure there are some areas in my heart that are still dark and the Lord has not shown me them, yet. I trust He will.

But on this subject, I don't think I am rebellious. I have friends that "go to church", and nothing leaks or seeps out of me regarding the Institutional Church when I am around them. We center on Jesus. I know that if one is "leaking" then they usually have a problem with whatever they are leaking about.

In this forum, it has been a blessing to have the freedom to talk about such important issues. Obviously, there are people that are at a place in their lives where they are able to hear and able to see and they want this discussion.

I certainly welcome the other side of the discussion and as always, I look for all ideas to be supported by the preponderance of scripture.

In His Love,
Pilgrim

 2010/10/30 15:27
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: Ginny







This is my post that you are referring to. I am copying it here for ease in replying to your questions, Neil.

Quote:
.it reminds me of the attitude that was so strong during the Vietnam War era that gave rise to the hippie movement where all forms of authority were challenged and considered suspect. This mindset opened the door to challenge all forms of authority whether it be in the church, government, schools, homes, society, workplace. I remember this quite well because it was my generation that did it. Now this mentality has come around again....



If you notice, I said that all authority was challenged. You alluded to the political world in which the hippies challenged the prevailing government.

This did happen, but it was only ONE area in which the hippes challenged authority.

If the hippies were as sincere in their opposition then why did they take to the streets and bomb buildings, riot? Neil, these people were not consistent in their philosophy. They did not practice what they preached. They preached peace, but did they promote it? "If you did not give in to our demands, we will bomb your buildings, take to the streets and riot!" And they did it, too. Get what I am saying?

They worked to destroy established government and worked to set up their own but failed. Many of these leaders were under Communist influence. It is only by the mercy and grace of God that our government did not collapse then and that we still have the freedoms that we do. It was war back then.

In the meantime the hippies were fornicating without any shame - it made fornication popular, something our nation has never recovered from. The popular music spewed rebellion and is with us today, only worse.

Having said all this, let me assure you I know full well about the hypocrisy that exists among professing Christians. I have worked in the gutter too long (15 years, to be exact) and I know about the secrets that exist in their churches. Joseph Webb was here the other week and he told us about the singles groups that exist in churches that supposedly reach out to divorced persons. He said it is the equivalent to the singles bar - it just now moved to the church down the street. Here these 'singles' meet to hook up later. Brethren, these things ought not so to be!!!! Is pilgrim or anyone else here lamenting the immorality that is being overlooked among churches, or any other group of Believers? This thing will lead a person to hell quicker then anything else.

These protesters also railed against schools, the curriculum....the end result is that it was dumbed down...short of the long. School authority was challenged...now you need police in the schools to protect students from each other. Teachers are on a short leach to discipline erring students. It used to not be so, Neil. Do you not remember, or are you too young?

Quote:
especially when many "leaders" in the church, serve as cheerleaders to provide spiritual covering to the very sin of conquest and murder, under the rubric of fighting "godless communism"?



Brother Neil, as a member of a brotherhood that practices Biblical non-resistance, we have seen young people in the peace churches who were disheartened by the hypocrisy coming from the pulpits, from the secular gov and they worked hard to change it. But it gave birth to social activism where the gospel's message was discarded in favor of social activism and now we have a mess from which I am not sure we'll ever recover from apart from the second coming of the LORD Jesus.

Romans 12 also teaches how one is to submit to civil authority. This was written during the time of Nero. If people were admonished to submit under that rule, how can we justify rebelling in any other kind of political situation?

Brother, youth are known for their idealism. We had it as well. But life has demonstrated that idealism must give way to realism and the TRUTH of the Gospel as taught by the Word. We need structure, we need elders who can help the weak amongst us. Read the book of Acts: the apostles appointed elders after founding a church in any community. God provided structure for the OT saints and also for us in the NT. Timothy and Titus both teach us thus.

Like I said, there is a lot said here that is true, but I feel uneasy about the anti-structure mentality as expressed on this thread....it is like throwing the baby out with the bath. I am 63 YO and have seen the course rebellion takes and it is frightening. Just do not let it impact you.

Neil, your post is long and I am not sure I have answered all your question[s]. If I am unclear, ask...

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2010/10/30 16:17Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Like I said, there is a lot said here that is true, but I feel uneasy about the anti-structure mentality as expressed on this thread....it is like throwing the baby out with the bath. I am 63 YO and have seen the course rebellion takes and it is frightening. Just do not let it impact you.



pilgrim777, is this "anti-structure" mentality really what you or other like-minded believers advocate?

Personally, I do not advocate that at all. From what I see, that is a big misrepresentation of what has been discussed here.

As far as "structure" is concerned, I and others believe that the function(not office) of elder/shepherd is placed by God for protecting the flock from wolves/heretics and helping to keep order within the church, as well as feeding the flock with sound doctrine from the Word. But the biblical model of eldership is far different than what we currently see in the evangelical churches. The biblical model allows other believers(teachers, prophets, exhorters, singers, etc.)to participate in edifying the church, as prescribed in 1Cor.14. Biblical elders do not take over the church or church meetings or all decision making. They use their gifts as there is opportunity and participate in the edifying function of the whole Body.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/10/30 17:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Like I said, there is a lot said here that is true, but I feel uneasy about the anti-structure mentality as expressed on this thread....it is like throwing the baby out with the bath. I am 63 YO and have seen the course rebellion takes and it is frightening. Just do not let it impact you.




Whoa Ginny, you got to lighten up.

We are talking about ungodly authority versus godly authority. Remember?

Godly authority does have structure. And yes, ungodly authority has it's structure, too. They are very, very different. It is clear that you are not interested in looking into what might be a bad structure and how is a good structure defined and how does God by His Spirit establish and give life to His church.

We are not calling for the abolishment of any kind of structure, but rather trying to see what Godly structure in the Spirit looks like not how man defines it.

Is that ok with you if we continue to talk about these things?

Can we stop all the ad hominems about communist party, fornicators, peace churches and social activism.

You sound very political. Are you? Do you look down on homeschoolers, too?

Quote:
Brother, youth are known for their idealism. We had it as well. But life has demonstrated that idealism must give way to realism and the TRUTH of the Gospel as taught by the Word. We need structure, we need elders who can help the weak amongst us. Read the book of Acts: the apostles appointed elders after founding a church in any community. God provided structure for the OT saints and also for us in the NT. Timothy and Titus both teach us thus.



Sister, realism is the Spirit of God ruling in our midst. This is something I don't think you know about. You only know about man's rule.

Quote:
I am 63 YO and have seen the course rebellion takes and it is frightening.



I really feel sorry for you. You are driven by so much fear, in this world and in the church. Is this really what you want in your life? This is the fruit of man's rule. FEAR. This is surely not the fruit of the Holy Spirit in your life. Ginny, let it go. Trust the Lord even in a conversation that you don't agree with, just trust the Lord. He has everything under control. If we are wrong, we will not bring forth any fruit.

Your fear causes you to categorize us into these groups that scare you. If you only knew that what we are talking about is not rebellion but pure devotion to Christ. But, I know how you are interpreting this thread. You are interpreting it through your fears.








 2010/10/30 17:35









 Re:

Quote:
pilgrim777, is this "anti-structure" mentality really what you or other like-minded believers advocate?



No Oracio. Not at all. Ginny's fears are causing her to be all over the map and she is making false assumptions left and right without even conversing with us. It might help her if she would try to ask a question.

Of course in the big show, there is no discussion, just sit down and be spoon fed. There is a lot of talking for sure but it is always AT YOU, not with you.

Ginny, why don't you take a chill pill and sit out for awhile until you can actually converse with us. You know, discuss, ask questions, rather than make outlandish statements.

Your picture of me must be one of a person that wears a army field jacket, smoking pot, with a Jesus patch on my shoulder, looking for something to bomb. Oh yeah, and I storm into the Institutional church on Sundays and bring down hell fire on the preacher.

It would be comical if you weren't so serious.

 2010/10/30 17:43





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