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mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Does anyone else feel we are beating a dead horse with this thread? Just curious :)


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2010/10/8 19:20Profile
StarofG0D
Member



Joined: 2007/10/28
Posts: 1232
United States

 Re:

Quote:
Does anyone else feel we are beating a dead horse with this thread? Just curious :)



*raises her hand*

It was semi-interesting at first..a small degree any how :)


_________________
Michelle

 2010/10/8 19:40Profile









 Re:

There is plenty of evidence in the article I posted and in Warren's booklet. If you refuse to consider it, this is your problem, Chris. I don't intend to waste my time with you, nor draw more attention to your person than you deserve. You have made every effort in these forums to SHUT DOWN (rather successfully) any edifying conversation and to distort all truth. Your bad fruit are evident. I am not writing this for your sake, but for the sake of the others who are reading this. There is nothing that will make you convinced--no amount of evidence--because you seek to distort reality and try to downplay any argument that doesn't line up with your own subversive agenda. Again, the fruit are evident, regardless of whether you are doing this wittingly or not. It is a shame that the moderators have allowed you to write some 3000 posts here, but this speaks of their discernment. After all, they can do what they want and welcome whomever they want in the forums.

You have asked a lot of questions, which disgust me, because you don't seek to know, but you want to present things as if they aren't certain, as if there is no evidence. If you were a seeker of the truth, you would have some truth in you, but I see none (and I am not to trust in myself and my own judgment, but in the Word of God, which is a witness against you, also confirmed by a remnant of faithful brethren here and there who cannot stand your spirit). I have said it before, if you had any sincerity in you, you wouldn't handle facts and truth in a brutal manner. I am writing this more for the brethren here, for I have no hope that you will listen.

Now you expect Warren to say, "I am an anti-Christ. I am a peddler of one-world religion." Will this convince you? But surely Warren is smart enough not to say this in public, for it'll thwart his whole agenda. That is why Christians must be smarter to discern the man's words and actions.

But the thread is about Rick Warren. Let's not make it about you, Chris. One thing I must admit is that you are so "good" at making even the simplest and most straightforward of matters "seem" dubious and uncertain, but this is nothing to boast about before God, to whom all is plain and naked.

My advise to you, Chris, is to take a break for a while, so you don't provoke the Lord to great anger. For He has been very patient with you, using you here to sift his people, but I don't know what may befall you when your purpose is complete and you have to answer before the Lord for every idle and deceptive word you have spoken?

 2010/10/8 19:41
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi Alive-to-God...

This is not actually the case. There have been plenty of conclusive accusations regarding Rick Warren (such as blanket accusations that he is a false teacher, a false prophet, trying to create a one world religion, etc...) -- but these are lacking specifics and the firsthand evidence upon which such specific accusations should be based. In fact, there have even been "quotations" of Rick Warren that were fictitious and gathered only from other websites that were critical of the man.

If we are going to make such strongly worded public announcements that the man is damned and preaching damnable messages -- then those accusers should at least present the specific statements in question, where they were gathered, and how the firsthand evidence Biblically supports the accusation.

Quote:

In my experience, there are two ways to work out whether a person is true or not. Either you trust them until you find by (usually bitter) experience they have been lying in some matter, or, if you have the spirit of discernment, you go by what God is showing you regardless of the beguiling nature of their outward motions. Equally, a person's outward motions might attract your concerns, but you discern that their heart is in the right place (as we say) and they are just a 'rough diamond' who'll polish up in time, under God's ministrations. I would say I've moved from being trusting, to being discerning. In other words, I now know the meaning of what I'm hearing and seeing, which before I'd been deceived, I didn't.


I am not sure if it is wise to base a very public judgment that this man is damned and leading people to Hell upon what we perceive to be "discernment." True discernment does not neglect the facts. Otherwise, any sincere (and sincerely wrong) believer could publicly make wild and outlandish claims.

What if someone publicly announced, "I don't trust 'Alive-to-God' because God made me to discern that he is a false teacher, false prophet and is leading people to Hell."

What should my reaction be?

Without presenting any specific evidence, why should I believe someone who makes such a claim?

There is also a danger of connecting dots that might not really be connected. In other words, some people are predisposed to declare someone guilty by association.

For instance, if I drove by a bar and saw you outside of it, I shouldn't assume that you are there to drink, get drunk, meet women or play billiards. You could be there preaching the Gospel. You could be there to pick up a loved one who needs help. You could be there because your car broke down and you needed the phone.

Recently, someone accused Rick Warren of wanting to create a one world religion. The only "evidence" that they provided was the fact that he prayed at Barack Obama's inauguration (*where Muslims also prayed) and that he was invited to sit on Tony Blair's Faith Foundation as a Christian representative. The "reading between the lines" comes from first from assuming that Blair's foundation actually wants to create a single religion (which is contrary to their stated goals) AND then assuming that this was a motivation of Rick Warren because he was invited to be a counselor and Christian representative at discussion forums. While it certainly might not have been the best choice for Rick Warren to have participated in this foundation -- it is a stretch to try and "connect the dots" and then publicly proclaim that he wants to create some sort of ecumenical one world religion.

We need to get it right.

If we are going to make a claim about the man, we need to have firsthand evidence that clearly indicates a charge. Otherwise, we are meandering into "rumor," "gossip," "hearsay," and conclusions that are drawn by something other than clearly defined facts (including poorly derived circumstantial evidence or even reading-between-the-lines). The weight of the charges against the man merit the need for substantial evidence. This doesn't mean that the burden of proof falls to those who HEAR the accusation. It also doesn't mean that we should gather our information from the accusations found at other websites. We should have enough fortitude to look this up ourselves if we are willing to entertain and repeat such things.

I hope that this makes a little more sense about what I am trying to say.


_________________
Christopher

 2010/10/8 19:43Profile
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

[by StarofG0D on 2010/10/8 16:01:58

Quote:
If Warren is really false, then its only right that his sermon should not be here.



But is he to the point of being called a false prophet?]


StarofGod, I do not know whether he is really false although I think he is more likely false because of my experience. I will share something that I've never shared before.

I've heard of Rick Warren for some time and was cautious of him. Read a fair bit of his book from beginning to end (although I did not read every word) and later was given the book as a present. Up till then, I still was not sure where he is true or false, but felt there were problems in his teaching. Still hoped that he is saved and if not, that he will be saved. I'm always reminded of something he shared in the book ie either his father/father-in-law (can't really remember now) on his deathbed, was so desperate to save 1 more soul for Jesus. I always wondered whether he would be that person--after I got the experience below.

Anyway, not long after I was given the book while lying in bed, very clear words (though not audible) came from my mouth. He is lying (meaning Rick Warren). I was so shocked because in my mind I still was not sure whether he is a true or false Christian although I felt there were errors in his book--after all true Christians do have errors too. While I was still in shock, the next sentence came out. "He is a false prophet". This made me even more shock. These words are something I can never do on my own. One cannot be shocked at something, then while still shocked and digesting the 1st sentence, be even more shocked with the next sentence uttered. I've never had this sort of thing happened to me before or afterwards.

I realize that God does give me at times the ability to tell that someone is a true Christian but it has never been through words. Only once and this is the one, have God (if in fact those words were actually from God and so far I have no reason to doubt it) told me that someone is a false Christian. The thing is it would be slightly easier (though still very hard) for me to believe that somehow it may be my own thoughts if the words were 'false Christian' but to say 'false prophet'--I have never used the word prophet in any conversation up till that point, so its hard to phanthom me even uttering this word, especially as I was still digesting my shock of uttering the 1st sentence of 'he is lying'.

The thing is before all this happen, I ever once listened to 1 of Paul Washer's sermon where he mentioned (something like that as I cannot remember everything now) while he was preaching in a church and the people were rowdy and not listening to him, suddenly words came out from his mouth and I paraphrase (something like that because I cannot remember clearly now) "young people, listen to me, this may be your only chance to listen to the gospel,people are going to come in and you may not have the chance anymore'. Paul Washer was so shocked and dismayed when he uttered the sentence and was saying why did he say that. Anyway, not long later, some people came banging at the church door trying to cause havoc. Finally when they left, the people in the church became quiet and really listened to Paul Washer's sermon. ---I remembered this after (not sure whether its immediately after) the words came out from my mouth with regards to Rick Warren.


I have been debating whether to share this experience ever since I got it for quite some time now. Its very difficult for me to do so because I feel that for all his errors, he is one of the most sincere 'false Christian if he is one' and seems to be trying to follow God. Also, he gives 90% of his earnings away, more generous than many true Christians. Plus my flesh prefer people listen to his sermon/book on that we must do good works instead of some real Christian pastors/people who preaches on easy believism. (Now, I know that good works do not save us and it is not an obligation, rather when we become Christians, we will be transformed and it becomes part of our nature to do good works. Its just that I'm tired of false Christians and even some true one who keep denying that we will produce good works.)

Finally, I am just an anonymous poster in this forum sharing his/her experience. All I know is I'm still rather reluctant to say yes or no with regards to him being saved although I will never recommend any book/sermon by him. How can I after that experience? I tend to lean more towards him not being saved although its with a very heavy heart and pray that he will be saved.

Edit to add:
The thing is I nearly typed my experience when replying to Jimmy but felt it was 'not yet'. Then later, I found you have asked the question and of all things 'ask whether is a false PROPHET"--the 2nd sentence that was uttered from my mouth (my experience). That's when I felt that I need to share my experience. I've kept it bottled all this while


_________________
geraldine

 2010/10/8 19:48Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

NotMe...

Quote:

There is plenty of evidence in the article I posted and in Warren's booklet. If you refuse to consider it, this is your problem, Chris. I don't intend to waste my time with you, nor draw more attention to your person than you deserve. You have made every effort in these forums to SHUT DOWN (rather successfully) any edifying conversation and to distort all truth. Your bad fruit are evident. I am not writing this for your sake, but for the sake of the others who are reading this. There is nothing that will make you convinced--no amount of evidence--because you seek to distort reality and try to downplay any argument that doesn't line up with your own subversive agenda. Again, the fruit are evident, regardless of whether you are doing this wittingly or not. It is a shame that the moderators have allowed you to write some 3000 posts here, but this speaks of their discernment. After all, they can do what they want and welcome whomever they want in the forums.



You need to repent of your lies, distortion, and spiritual pride!

Don't come in here and lecture me of bearing bad fruit simply because I am unwilling to damn a man to hell simply because you say so.

If you want to publicly damn the man -- then you are accountable for what you say.

Yet, you have repeatedly damned me, ridiculed me, and spewed all sorts of filth, ridicule and scorn simply because I don't quickly adhere to your specific views. Do you think that this is wise? Is this what God has called you to do?

Quote:

You have asked a lot of questions, which disgust me, because you don't seek to know, but you want to present things as if they aren't certain, as if there is no evidence. If you were a seeker of the truth, you would have some truth in you, but I see none (and I am not to trust in myself and my own judgment, but in the Word of God, which is a witness against you, also confirmed by a remnant of faithful brethren here and there who cannot stand your spirit). I have said it before, if you had any sincerity in you, you wouldn't handle facts and truth in a brutal manner. I am writing this more for the brethren here, for I have no hope that you will listen.



You have NOT presented the truth. You have presented an accusation that is unsubstantiated. You have damned a man to Hell...claimed that he is a false prophet...and then failed to present any sort of specific evidence to substantiate any sort of specific claim.

But, of course, this is how you have publicly treated me here at SermonIndex on more than one occasion. If I don't listen to the "truth" as YOU see it or claim it, then I must be a "reprobate" (or worse). Do you see how wrong that this is?

Quote:

Now you expect Warren to say, "I am an anti-Christ. I am a peddler of one-world religion." Will this convince you? But surely Warren is smart enough not to say this in public, for it'll thwart his whole agenda. That is why Christians must be smarter to discern the man's words and actions.



No, I don't expect this either. However, you have NOT presented anything but a mere conclusion. You have presented a judgment. You have NOT presented anything that would substantiate your judgment -- other than more judgment and accusations. If he is a false prophet -- SHOW ME! Take me to the exact statement...in context...in one of HIS books or sermons! If you can't do this, then you need to refrain from making accusations without proof.

I have said repeatedly that I am NOT defending Rick Warren. I am simply pointing out that I hear so many accusations that the man is damnable -- but so little specific accusations or specific evidence.

Quote:

But the thread is about Rick Warren. Let's not make it about you, Chris. One thing I must admit is that you are so "good" at making even the simplest and most straightforward of matters "seem" dubious and uncertain, but this is nothing to boast about before God, to whom all is plain and naked.



This is not about me...even though you have attempted to make it so. There is NOTHING DUBIOUS about asking someone to back up their accusations with some sort of proof. If you want to call Rick Warren a "false prophet" -- then show us. Show us where he false prophesied. Show us his statement. Show us where you found it. Show us how this is any different than anything that you have done here when you were wrong on a doctrinal issue. If you can't present evidence, then why make the public declaration about the condition of his heart?

Quote:

My advise to you, Chris, is to take a break for a while, so you don't provoke the Lord to great anger. For He has been very patient with you, using you here to sift his people, but I don't know may befall you when your purpose is complete and you have to answer before the Lord for every idle and deceptive word you have spoken?



Thankfully, you are NOT God. You have no say in his "great anger" -- because I have a feeling that you would have shot plenty of arrows at me already. I don't know, but it seems like you think that you may have done God a favor. However, you are not in charge of SermonIndex. You are not in charge of me. You are not in charge of the Church. Ultimately, that responsibility remains with our Lord. Each of us will give account to Him. If you want to spew your judgment ahead of the Lord, then you will have to give an account for it -- just as we will.

Regardless, I am not going to base my conclusion (about Rick Warren or any other matter) upon what you say. If you can't substantiate your blanket judgment of Rick Warren (or anyone else) with any sort of specific evidence, then I should not take it as anything other than your own opinion -- and nothing more.


_________________
Christopher

 2010/10/8 20:02Profile
StarofG0D
Member



Joined: 2007/10/28
Posts: 1232
United States

 Re:

Thank you for sharing this learn. I actually read the entire Purpose Driven Life book.
My aunt had given it to me. And I was just absolutely thrilled that she had given me such a book. I didn't know ANY of my blood family/relatives had any desire to seek the Lord at all in a real way. Which later opened up other doors to talk with her. However, I still think she's watered down. :p But if I have any relatives that are born again, she'd be it, I think. So Praise the Lord.

No I did not agree with all of the book. Thought it watered down and lukewarm to put it bluntly. But surely would not have called him a false prophet at the time. However, I have not kept up with it now. That was several years ago.

I have heard that same message by Paul Washer.


_________________
Michelle

 2010/10/8 20:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:
There have been yards of quotation from Rick Warren on SI in the past, which, if they don't alarm you, is not directly my problem. However, your problem with the concerns it raises in others, seems slightly over the top. It seems you have some work to do, before chiding others so strongly for the opinions they hold.



Yeah, Chris has to do some research.

Only a man with something at stake will jump like this in defense of Rick Warren (without any prior knowledge of the man and his doctrine). Without any fear that he may be defending an anti-Christ. Instead of quietly doing his research and being persuaded in his heart about the matter, he goes around decrying any firm stance against the heresies of Warren as unfounded, while he hasn't moved his finger to check like a good Berean "whether the things are so". This is problematic. Moreover, Chris has done this over and over again ever since I have run into him in the forums. As another brother said, "It [Chris's neutral stance] is a constant attempt to nullify any word that may come forward." I am not against making sure an accusation is true indeed, without assuming the accused party guilty without proof, because one needs a certain amount of undisputable information in order to keep a clean conscience before the Lord and to be able to make a righteous and just judgment. However, Chris has used the statement that there is not enough evidence for him to make a judgment on many occasions as a cop-out for "not taking a stance" at all (which is still a stance!). He never goes beyond the "collecting evidence" stage, which for me suggests that he likes it this way and that maybe he doesn't have any intention of taking side on a particular issue (although this neutrality is no neutrality at all, because in the Bible there is no thing neutral: "Luk 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."). This too is problematic. Because if you constantly don't seek the truth and don't find the truth (even though it is there before you), this means you are driven by OTHER motives, which are in no way honorable.

 2010/10/8 20:07
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

NotMe...

You have not presented specific allegations. You have not presented specific evidence. All you have done is proclaim that the man is a false teacher.

As for your inclination about me: If you think that I have any other motive in this other than to see the specific allegations and the specific evidence upon which it is based, then I can see why you are prone to such poor judgment. This is not wise.

I am not defending Warren. I don't listen to him. I have never heard him preach a sermon. I have never owned or read any of his books. The only time I have ever read any passage that Warren has written was while trying to ascertain the truth regarding certain allegations.

By the way, it is better to be "neutral" than to arrive to a conclusion without evidence. Make sense?


_________________
Christopher

 2010/10/8 20:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Yet, you have repeatedly damned me, ridiculed me, and spewed all sorts of filth, ridicule and scorn simply because I don't quickly adhere to your specific views. Do you think that this is wise? Is this what God has called you to do?



Oh, Chris! Don't you worry about me. If it were me you had a problem with, you will be fine. But you have a problem with God's Word which testifies against you. Don't tremble at me; tremble at His Word.

Quote:
I have said repeatedly that I am NOT defending Rick Warren. I am simply pointing out that I hear so many accusations that the man is damnable -- but so little specific accusations or specific evidence.



There is plenty of SPECIFIC EVIDENCE in the article I posted. It doesn't get more specific and more thorough than this. He who has ears, let him hear. May God have mercy on you...

 2010/10/8 20:21





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