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 Re: Rick Warren

Hi Chris,

I was generalising.

My point is, that you can do all that reseach, and still not know whether the person is living what they claim.

It's not just about what a person says, but what they do.

If I lie, that makes me a liar.

This is one of the reasons we have been given the Spirit of Truth by God our Father. He knows how tricky words can be, and He is not convinced by words alone, but by a heart which shows itself in actions.

It is on these points that Rick Warren, regardless of what he says - what his website says, what his associates claim for him - fails to walk the talk. It is on looking into scripture that we find amenability, popularity, business success, gifts to charity, accommodating other religions, (and so on), are to be judged by Jesus Christ (Rom 2:16), and that He obtained the Holy Spirit for us so that we would not be deceived.

Deception is not a 'mind' thing. It's a spirit thing. If you have the Holy Spirit (and I mean you), then there will be times when you will simply 'know' that you are being misled by the words you are hearing.

If you don't have that faculty, then you have to trust those who do, or, by all means continue to doubt on the grounds that your mind is not convinced. However, your mind doesn't need to be convinced if the Holy Spirit shows you something. Your mind changes to what the Holy Spirit showed you, unless you resist Him, because we are exhorted several times by Paul to be renewed in the spirit of our minds; this is specifically about stopping thinking the way we used to think (the world's standards), and starting to think what and how God thinks.

So, with regard to Rick Warren, do you believe that he (or anyone), can hold an advisory role to an organisation which is bent on accommodating all religions (as its main aim, as he does), without compromising his call to the ministry to make disciples of all men?





 2010/10/8 14:59
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi Alive-to-God...

Still, the burden of proof lay with the accuser.

There are plenty of judgments about the man (Rick Warren) flying around. In fact, most of the accusers are attempting to convince us of this man's evil. Yet, we just don't have much "evidence" upon which we can make an actual conclusion.

One person once told me (about such allegations) that we have the "Spirit of Truth" by which we can judge individuals (suggesting that facts aren't necessary before we go about publicly assassinating the character of a person). This is a silly statement -- because it relies upon "faith" in the person making the public accusation rather than upon facts or the clarity of our own relationship with God. It doesn't allow others to make up their mind -- because the constant public repetition of such conclusions are based on someone else's ability to hear and repeat the voice of God. Moreover, any believer can claim the same thing about anyone that they get what they perceive to be a "spiritual impression" about another person.

Here, we have a man of which many accusations are levied. Yet few facts have been presented by which we substantiate the accusation. If people want to say that the "Spirit of God" led them to a conclusion sans evidence, then so be it. I think that it would be silly to make bold public claims about a man with no evidence by which to substantiate those claims. Ultimately, we wouldn't know WHO is the liar -- the accused or the accuser.

Quote:

So, with regard to Rick Warren, do you believe that he (or anyone), can hold an advisory role to an organisation which is bent on accommodating all religions (as its main aim, as he does), without compromising his call to the ministry to make disciples of all men?



Again, you are raising an allegation WITHOUT any evidence upon which we can inspect the truthfulness of the allegation. Which organization are you talking about? Where did you see this goal or mission about "accommodating all religions as its main aim?" What evidence did you examine to substantiate this claim? Where did you first hear about this claim?

It is difficult to make any assessment of this man or situation when so many rumors are spread without specific accusations or allegations or the evidence upon which those accusations is based.

Does that make any sense?

I am not saying that Rick Warren is guilty or innocent of such specific conclusions or accusations. I just haven't seen any of the evidence to verify, test or prove those claims. The burden of proof obviously falls to the accuser rather than the accused.

It would be helpful to see:

1. The specific accusations.
2. The firsthand evidence upon which these accusations are based.
3. Where these accusations were first learned? Was the evidence gathered from firsthand sources or from examining secondhand sources?

Given the gravity of such accusations, we owe it to the purity of God to get such things correct. If we don't have any specific allegations or evidence to go by, why should we believe the accuser?


_________________
Christopher

 2010/10/8 15:19Profile
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


 Re:

I have mixed feelings about this thread.

On the one hand, false teachings must be exposed, or at the very least, set aside; on the other hand, we must not slander one another.

Let me ask these questions: Has any of you ever misinterpreted the Bible? How bad was it? How would you want someone to deal with you in order to correct you? Would you want that person to tell everyone what a corrupt teacher you are, or would you want that person to deal with you graciously, by patiently admonishing you in private?

It is easy to accuse Rick Warren, saying that he has compromised the Gospel with humanism (http://www.libertyadvocate.com/message28.htm). It is also easy to accuse David Wilkerson of having told false prophecies (http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/david-wilkerson-prophecy.htm). Again, it is easy to accuse Chuck Smith of having wrongly predicted that the rapture would happen in 1981 (http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/1981). The list goes on and on…

What are we left with? Not much. Everyone makes mistakes; yes, even Leonard Ravenhill and Paul Washer, two of my favorite preachers. I will be the first to admit having made many errors in Bible interpretation. I am glad for the graciousness of people who have disagreed with me, whether their reproofs were well founded or not.

Where do we draw the line, then? Are we the ones to draw the line? I challenge you to do a survey of the New Testament in order to find the instances where false teachers are rebuked and when the testing of the spirits comes into play. Ultimately, the Gospel stands out particularly; namely, the person and the work of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Now, the question remains, what types of perversions of the Gospel are condemned in Scripture? I trust that as you read the Scriptures, you will begin to discern a pattern.

Humbly your servant

 2010/10/8 15:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I am not saying that Rick Warren is guilty or innocent of such specific conclusions or accusations. I just haven't seen any of the evidence to verify, test or prove those claims. The burden of proof obviously falls to the accuser rather than the accused. It would be helpful to see: 1. The specific accusations. 2. The firsthand evidence upon which these accusations are based. 3. Where these accusations were first learned? Was the evidence gathered from firsthand sources or from examining secondhand sources?



Savannah provided some good sources on Warren. But either way if Chris doesn't have Warren's book to see whether the quotes are truly from it, then Chris has a problem. Maybe we should fundraise to get Chris a copy of The Purpose-Driven Life...

For those who are insterested in the person of Rick Warren, here is a good article by Bob DeWaay (the author of the first book Savannah recommended), with plenty of quotes and first-hand evidence (not rumors):

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue80.htm

Also, here you could find a free online copy of Warren's "What On Earth Am I Here For?" booklet (which comprises the first seven chapters of the Purpose-Driven Life):

http://docs.purposedriven.org:8088/docs/pdl/samplechapters/woeaihf.pdf

The butchering/watering down/twisting of Scripture by Warren is grotesque. I remember reading his book, The Purpose Driven Life, in 2003 and 2004, while still in my sins. There was no requirement, no mention of repentance. Only a year later was I confronted with the Gospel. A year of reading Warren was not enough to impress upon me the necessity of repentance. Because the guy preaches a man-centered, seeker-friendly gospel, where God offers freely his love and forgiveness to all mankind (page 29 of the booklet). Again no mention of repentance. Very different from what we see in Scripture is this "gospel of love" (which, by no accident, has been preached in the latter days by catholics and protestants alike):

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

It is amazing that it took me a very short period of time in the beginning of my Christian walk to test and prove that Warren was a false teacher and move on, while people like Chris, who have been on these forums for years, have not yet found enough evidence to confirm the acccusations of Warren. God's Word is immutable though: "He who seeks shall find"; he who hasn't found, hasn't been seeking.

I believe a lot has been said/written on Rick Warren in these 7-8 years of SermonIndex. Unfortunately the search engines of the website are not working, which makes it very difficult to find something this old in the archives. Either way, God honors seeking the truth diligently and will grant his children peace and assurance in that truth.

It is shameful though that for many people "Rick Warren being a false teacher" is a stumbling block. It just doesn't resonate with their "don't judge", "God is love" evangelical mentality, which has become the norm around American churches. For so many years they haven't moved even into the basics of God's Word, in spite of all the biblical sermons! And God's requirement and purpose for the church in these last days is much greater and much more complex than being able to stand against the Rick Warren deception (which is quite simple, straightforward and shallow).

Sadly, something came out of this thread, which I had expected all along, which brother nearthecross noticed:

Quote by sermonindex:

I just added a message Rick Warren preached at the desiring God conference (John Piper's) to sermonindex.net I used to have a very bad view of Rick Warren but after spending some time following what he is saying and hearing his heart I realize I mis-judged him. He is not perfect but neither am I. I can learn much from Rick Warren.


nearthecross wrote:
Quote:
Greg, This is one of the many reasons why I can no longer recommend or endorse Sermonindex to anyone. It is extremely grieving to see the error your lack of discernment is leading you to. Not just with Warren but with other heretics that openly embrace perfectionism, Pelagianism, Moral Government theology, and Open Theism.



I used to have SI as my "homepage" listed in various profiles. This is no longer so. SI has become a habitation of all sorts of unclean birds, if I could use the metaphor.

It is amazing how the expectation for end-time revival has made many blind to the great and inevitable falling away which we are witnessing and which must happen before the Lord returns.

 2010/10/8 16:26









 Re:

Quote:
I used to have SI as my "homepage" listed in various profiles. This is no longer so. SI has become a habitation of all sorts of unclean birds, if I could use the metaphor.



Oh I do.

SI is still a recommendation on all my profiles. Because even in the midst of unclean birds, there are clean birds.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

 2010/10/8 16:41
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi NotMe...

Quote:

Savannah provided some good sources on Warren. But either way if Chris doesn't have Warren's book to see whether the quotes are truly from it, then Chris has a problem. Maybe we should fundraise to get Chris a copy of The Purpose-Driven Life...



I'm not sure if this is supposed to be funny, sarcastic or just mean-spirited. I didn't ridicule you or your perspective. I ask that you don't do the same to others -- even if you disagree with what they write.

To be clear: Savannah didn't list any specific allegations. Moreover, Savannah didn't provide any firsthand citations of Rick Warren's books, sermons, or literature upon which specific claims are based (unless I missed them). From what I saw, it was just the same anti-Warren articles. No formal allegations or accusations are made. This is just the same, tired "Rick Warren is bad" rhetoric without explicit examples of WHAT HE SAID, WHERE HE SAID IT, and WHERE IT WAS GATHERED.

Quote:

For those who are insterested in the person of Rick Warren, here is a good article by Bob DeWaay (the author of the first book Savannah recommended), with plenty of quotes and first-hand evidence (not rumors):

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue80.htm

Also, here you could find a free online copy of Warren's "What On Earth Am I Here For?" booklet (which comprises the first seven chapters of the Purpose-Driven Life):

http://docs.purposedriven.org:8088/docs/pdl/samplechapters/woeaihf.pdf

The butchering/watering down/twisting of Scripture by Warren is grotesque. I remember reading his book, The Purpose Driven Life, in 2003 and 2004, while still in my sins. There was no requirement, no mention of repentance. Only a year later was I confronted with the Gospel. A year of reading Warren was not enough to impress upon me the necessity of repentance. Because the guy preaches a man-centered, seeker-friendly gospel, where God offers freely his love and forgiveness to all mankind (page 29 of the booklet).



Would you care to be specific? Are you saying that this guy NEVER preaches repentance? So, I take it that you have heard everything this man has preached and read everything that this man has written over the last ten years? That is quite a blanket accusation...and it is probably impossible to validate either way.

Since I am not very familiar with Rick Warren, it would help to understand such things only if those who accuse would provide specific accusations and the evidence upon which those claims are based. I am not called to believe accusations without evidence any more than I would be called to believe the man in question.

Quote:

It is amazing that it took me a very short period of time in the beginning of my Christian walk to test and prove that Warren was a false teacher and move on, while people like Chris, who have been on these forums for years, have not yet found enough evidence to confirm the acccusations of Warren. God's Word is immutable though: "He who seeks shall find"; he who hasn't found, hasn't been seeking.



The passage that you quoted is from Matthew chapter 7. No where in the context of that passage are we called to seek out "evil" about a person. We are called to seek God. We aren't suppose to waste our time seeking out a whole lot of rumors.

People are voicing repetitious conclusions about Rick Warren. Yet I see very few (if any) specific allegations. Since we can't consider specific allegations, how do we verify whether there is truth behind the conclusion.

I am NOT supporting Rick Warren. I don't think that this could be any more clear. I am just saying that if a person is bold enough to loudly and publicly proclaim that this man is a "false teacher" or "an appostate" (or something like that) -- then that person needs to provide the evidence to substantiate the claim. A link to an anti-Rick Warren book or website is NOT evidence. It isn't even a specific allegation. It is just someone else's opinion.

So, if you think Rick Warren is this devil...then tell us why. Please be specific with the allegation or accusation. Then please be specific with the evidence to validate the accusation.

Quote:

I believe a lot has been said/written on Rick Warren in these 7-8 years of SermonIndex. Unfortunately the search engines of the website are not working, which makes it very difficult to find something this old in the archives. Either way, God honors seeking the truth diligently and will grant his children peace and assurance in that truth.

It is shameful though that for many people "Rick Warren being a false teacher" is a stumbling block. It just doesn't resonate with their "don't judge", "God is love" evangelical mentality, which has become the norm around American churches. For so many years they haven't moved even into the basics of God's Word, in spite of all the biblical sermons! And God's requirement and purpose for the church in these last days is much greater and much more complex than being able to stand against the Rick Warren deception (which is quite simple, straightforward and shallow).



Again, I think that you are misunderstanding the point that many of us are making. We are NOT saying that Rick Warren is a good man, a true believer, a Biblical teacher, a prophet, or anything like that. We are just saying BACK IT UP. If you are going to make such a bold public claim, then, at least, BACK IT UP. Personally, I am just saying that a person who pronounces an accusatory judgment should at least provide the specific accusations and evidence when they make such a defining claim.

Otherwise, it might be "shameful" for a person to rely solely upon the accusations of someone else without testing and verifying those words or sources.

Even the accusation of nearthecross...
Quote:

Not just with Warren but with other heretics that openly embrace perfectionism, Pelagianism, Moral Government theology, and Open Theism.


...very broad, it is unsubstantiated by anything other than the accusations of nearthecross. What nearthecross said could very well be true! Yet, how do we know? Where is the evidence that Rick Warren embraces "perfectionism" (and what is that, anyway?), teaches "Pelagianism," embraces every aspect of "Moral Government theology," and pushes "Open Theism?" That was a bold...but unsubstantiated...claim.

The burden of proof in such accusations is not a simple "Go seek and find it yourself." If you are going to be so bold as to proclaim damnation upon a person, then you owe it to the rest of us to get it right -- and prove your claim. In most of the Rick Warren threads, there has been a lot of conclusions presented ("false teacher," "wolf in sheep's clothing," "false prophet," "wants to create a one world religion," etc...), yet there has been so little evidence from the man's writings and sermons to validate such damning public conclusions.

Again, no one is defending Rick Warren. I don't know a whole lot about the guy. Yet I have read plenty of verdicts on his character and eternal condition. He could be a wolf. He could be a liar. He could very well be purposely leading people to Hell. He could also be misled. He could also be misunderstood. He could be misunderstanding certain aspects of the faith. However, where is the evidence?

Is he a false teacher? Why? Please provide specific evidence from his books, writings, teachings, or sermons.

Is he a wolf? Why? Please provide specific evidence from his books, writings, teachings, or sermons.

Is he trying to create a one-world religion? How do you know? Please provide specific evidence from his books, writings, teachings, or sermons.

Is this too much to ask? After all, we aren't the ones accusing this man or pronouncing eternal damnation upon him.

Finally, my biggest concern isn't just with what the man may preach. It is also with what the man might leave out. Does he ever preach the whole counsel of God? Does he ever preach repentance? Does he ever preach about sin? Does he ever preach the importance of lingering in God's presence? Does he preach the need to be desperate for an intimate relationship with God? Does he ever preach the need to judge all things by God's Word?

I don't know. But, if you are going to proclaim such important things, at least be willing to substantiate your claims with the evidence upon which it is based. What specific things (firsthand evidence) caused you to feel the way that you do?


_________________
Christopher

 2010/10/8 17:29Profile
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

KingJimmy, 1 big reason why there is hardly any people against David Wilkerson's sermons here compared to Rick Warren is because they believe Wilkerson is a true Christian while they believed Warren is false. If Warren is really false, then its only right that his sermon should not be here.


_________________
geraldine

 2010/10/8 18:57Profile
StarofG0D
Member



Joined: 2007/10/28
Posts: 1232
United States

 Re:

Quote:
Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.



Amen snuf. I am not sure if all this Rick Warren bashing is healthy.


_________________
Michelle

 2010/10/8 19:00Profile
StarofG0D
Member



Joined: 2007/10/28
Posts: 1232
United States

 Re:

Quote:
If Warren is really false, then its only right that his sermon should not be here.



But is he to the point of being called a false prophet?


_________________
Michelle

 2010/10/8 19:01Profile









 Re: Rick Warren


Hi Chris,

I believe, through claiming to be born again, you also claim to have the 'Spirit of Truth'.

You've asked loads of questions about Rick Warren, but you are surprisingly unable to interpret his teachings, which are the public domain. You may wish to check such information privately, which is your own business.


This is the Holy Spirit which YOU have received:

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


In other words, comforting as university or legal standards of proof might be, God is putting His word above them, and this is the standard which applies in the Church.


I, personally, have no problem with your refusing to make a judgement before you feel you have evidence to a level which you cannot ignore. However, there is an assumption there, that you will leave no stone unturned. You will keep looking until you have a wealth of evidence, especially if you're NOT relying on the Holy Spirit to show you. Some have more experience of spotting the differences, than others, and not all are called upon to comment.

There have been yards of quotation from Rick Warren on SI in the past, which, if they don't alarm you, is not directly my problem. However, your problem with the concerns it raises in others, seems slightly over the top. It seems you have some work to do, before chiding others so strongly for the opinions they hold.

Quote:
This is a silly statement -- because it relies upon "faith" in the person making the public accusation rather than upon facts or the clarity of our own relationship with God. It doesn't allow others to make up their mind -- because the constant public repetition of such conclusions are based on someone else's ability to hear and repeat the voice of God. Moreover, any believer can claim the same thing about anyone that they get what they perceive to be a "spiritual impression" about another person.

Of course my 'faith' is in action when I hear a dodgy statement from an eminent Christian. You don't have to believe what I tell you I 'hear', but I (emphasis on 'I') have to believe what God has shown me.

No-one is prevented from making up their own mind, by the statement of another. You are free to make up your mind on the basis of your own 'hear'ing.

In my experience, there are two ways to work out whether a person is true or not. Either you trust them until you find by (usually bitter) experience they have been lying in some matter, or, if you have the spirit of discernment, you go by what God is showing you regardless of the beguiling nature of their outward motions. Equally, a person's outward motions might attract your concerns, but you discern that their heart is in the right place (as we say) and they are just a 'rough diamond' who'll polish up in time, under God's ministrations. I would say I've moved from being trusting, to being discerning. In other words, I now know the meaning of what I'm hearing and seeing, which before I'd been deceived, I didn't.

You don't have to believe my testimony. Feel free to doubt it.

 2010/10/8 19:09





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