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 Re: One faith under one purpose..CONSUMING HUMANISM




Firstly, Rick Warren is a consummate humanist, and his concept of pleasing God is not the same as the bible....trusting in the blood of Jesus and repenting unto holiness.


In this quote below, we see the inclusiveness; Universalism, that drives Warren's perverted gospel that probably includes everyone on the earth that wants "God."

Warren speaking;
"In his book Sacred Pathways, Gary [Thomas] identifies nine of the ways people draw near to God: Naturalists are most inspired to love God out-of-doors, in natural settings. Sensates love God with their senses and appreciate beautiful worship services that involve their sight, taste, smell and touch, not just their ears.

Traditionalists draw closer to God through rituals, liturgies, symbols, and unchanging structures. Ascetics prefer to love God in solitude and simplicity. Activists love God through confronting evil, battling injustices, and working to make the world a better place.

Caregivers love God by loving others and meeting their needs. Enthusiasts love God through celebration. Contemplatives love God through adoration. Intellectuals love God by studying with their minds" (p. 103).

"The purpose driven life."...Rick Warren

This is new age anti-Christ; anti blood dribble from the siver anointed forked tongue! Nothing of the truth gospel here.

In his inaugural address/prayer of President Obama, he tried to bind the name of Jesus with the Moslem Messiah, ISA, as one and the same.

Muslims do believe that Isa was sent down as a Prophet of Allah (God), but he (Jesus) is not God or Lord, nor the son of God. Muslims do not believe that Isa , also known as Jesus by Christians and others, is dead or was ever crucified.


"I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the spirit of Truth will come, he will guide you into all truth, for he shall speak not of himself,

but whatsoever he shall hear, that he shall speak, and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and he shall show it unto you."
John 16-12:14

Ulema (learned scholars in Islam) have said that the person who is described by Hadhrat Isa to come after him - in the above verse - does not comply with any other person but Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)ISA IS IN EFFECT, NONE OTHER THAN MOHAMMED.

In this case, the "comforter" he mentions is none other than Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his laws and way of life (Shariah) and Book (Holy Qur'an) are those that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) asks his followers to abide by."


"Rick Warren Tells Passive, Fake Christians to Find Another Church."...original post.


"Pastor Rick Warren has a message for the some 20,000 people who attend Saddleback Church: If you want to remain a passive Christian, find another church.

During his weekend sermon, Warren laid out a plan for Saddleback's next "Decade of Destiny" in which he's anticipating exponential growth. And the plan has no room for fake Christians, he indicated."


This has been going on for several years now. Christians in the churches are asked to sign a covenant not to question the Pastor's intent, and commit to doing; mobilizing to Warren's radical social engineering projects, where he sees the churches, mosques, and synagogues [ all under one God...who is the same for all] as the regional foundations to distribute positive spirituality.


Several churches have been split through this takeover....a chapter [day] of his book is devoted to it.

If you don't sign on, it's time to move on . Many don't, and leave...


He's weeding out the church, OK....Those who believe the real gospel must obey his agenda, or leave.

Anti-Christ....in place of Christ.






_________________
ALL FOR JESUS NO MATTER THE COST.







 2010/10/7 19:17
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hello...

It would help those of us who aren't "experts" into Rick Warren to actually be specific with these allegations.

There are plenty of allegations about Rick Warren. We have heard them many times here at SermonIndex (and in a lot of the "discernment" websites, magazines and books). These are often repeated without any citation or evidence...or are often apparently deduced by "reading between the lines."

Can someone:

1. List those specific allegations.
2. Provide specific citations from his books/words/sermons upon which the allegation is based upon.
3. Please indicate where YOU gathered or accessed the allegation/information/evidence (so that we can verify if this was done from personally testing/proving Rick Warren's statements -- or if this is repeating allegations made by someone else).

This would help us to separate the mud from the water...myth from rumor...bone from marrow...truth from lie. It would help those of us who are less aware of such things to examine these allegations ourselves...and then do whatever is necessary for clarity (such as contact Rick Warren and/or his ministry). This will help us avoid presumption and rely on evidential proof.

Not long ago, someone made some claims about Rick Warren. They tried to validate their claims with "evidence" -- which was nothing more than claims that they found at someone else's website. I discovered that the "quote" was fraudulent. However, it also caused me to contact his ministry for clarity regarding the essence of the allegation. The ministry contacted me, clarified Rick Warren's view, and even sent me some links where I found statements by Rick Warren that were contrary to what was claimed.

Please understand: I am not an apologist for Rick Warren. I don't listen to the man. I do not own -- nor have I read -- any of his books. I have never heard him preach a sermon. However, I have looked through what were claimed to be portions of his books at websites that were critical of the man. Moreover, if he is preaching heresy or even what I see as flawed doctrine, I would point it out. Given the gravity of the allegations, I think that we owe it to God to get it correct before we shoot those arrows that we sometimes think that we must shoot.

Over the years here at SermonIndex, there are men who have become the targets of allegations (or whispers). This isn't just the popular figures like Rick Warren, Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn. This includes men like Martin Luther, the Wesley brothers, C. S. Lewis, Charles Finney and even Matthew Henry. This includes less popular-culture type of preachers like David Wilkerson, Leonard Ravenhill, Paul Washer and even Corrie ten Boom. Most of the "arrows" that are shot are due to doctrinal differences. Often, some men and women are willing to shoot such arrows based upon that preacher's view on eschatology, Pentecostal views of the gifts of the Spirit, music, Calvinism (pro or con), etc...

I am not saying that this is the case here. However, I just urge caution in regard to public allegations like this. If we feel the urgent need to lay out such harsh allegations -- we owe it to God (and the target of this criticism) to get it right. We should certainly TEST and PROVE each message (and the character of those who teach it). However, we must be careful to get it right.

My biggest concern (from limited understanding that I have with Rick Warren) isn't just with what he may have said or taught. Rather, it is also with what he might NOT have said and taught. A person can stand on San Francisco "rainbow district" street corners and and preach "JESUS LOVES YOU" all day long. However, it doesn't necessarily teach the "whole counsel of God" if we neglect to teach all of the truth. Just like preaching the justice of God without the love and mercy of God is an error, so is teaching the love of God without mentioning His justice.

Just something to consider.


_________________
Christopher

 2010/10/7 20:18Profile
NewCovWinDor
Member



Joined: 2007/2/10
Posts: 72
A Little Town In Iowa

 Re:

Blanket statements smother people. :)

I really wish everyone would pay attention to ccchhhrrriiisss and Natan4Jesus. They've got some good points, and everyone has been so ready to lampoon Warren that those very valid points have gone unnoticed. As one who knows precious little about him, I would like specifics... not arguments.

I do not feel Rick Warren is a good source of counsel or teaching, from the fruits I have seen in his increasingly liberal, ecumenical church plants. This is as far as I can say by experience.

Come now, and let us REASON together... not argue! There is so much vitriol flying around that it's hardly Christian. Can we not discuss something without being violent?

Many times, I feel we are dangerously close to the Pharisees as we carefully weigh out our doctrinal mint, anise and cumin, while passing over the weightier matters of the Law... judgment, mercy and faith. Brethren, where is our love? Remember that the self-same Jesus who called the Scribes and Pharisees vipers was also wept over them and their city... and said at the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

What has happened to the Jeremiahs and Daniels who will weep over the sins of the people, instead of lambasting them? Those of us who style themselves prophets, or gifted with discernerment, beware! Pride is ever before our door. "Satan will be more than happy to cure your chilblains if he can only give you cancer in return," says C.S. Lewis.

"Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned," says Paul. Let's keep first things first.

Peace in Jesus, the Lamb that was slain,


_________________
Ryan G.

 2010/10/7 20:39Profile









 'notme'...oh yes you.

first i make a meek humble entreaty...soft.

and you respond with patronizing asides in return?

and then to left hand accuse me of

"upholding of falsehood"

or

"You just cannot place Rick Warren next to either Paul, or Appolos,"

and

"but a conflict between disciples of Christ and advocates of the false gospel of Rick Warren."

further accusations:
"Before trying to disrupt a conversation, you should fist get to understand the arguments. A heated debate is not inherently sinful."

"disrupting"? "blessed are the peacemakers".

Jesus' Words...instead you write, that "heated debate
is not inherantly sinful".

cow pies! forget "inherantly" and the parsing of words, such foolish, needless debate is not only sinful, but SIN SOAKEd! fore it gives birth to devouring and diviseness.

i dont know rickwarren, havent been led to read rick warren, i stick to the Bible and keep to the standards.

and then you conclude with this bit of hard hearted palaber:

"Trying to shut down a conversation when you lack discerment is shameful."

first, i wasnt trying to shut a "conversation", i was begging humbly the brethern not to burrow down a rabbit hole of unprofitability and diviseness.

"shameful"?

pad off to the bathroom, take a deep look in the mirror, an beg God to reveal your own shame by accusing me of lacking 'discernment'.

dont you lecture me, and dont you think that i'm some soft sissy boy pulpit ornament, i'm a burnt out, dying to self and flesh worm servant of Christ, washed in the Blood, who knows that God is in total control, and has little need of arrogant fleshlings stomping around the Church pretending to be 'defenders' of Christ. Jesus is absolutely caapable of defending Himself. he doesn't need you or me for that, and the sooner you realize this Truth, the closer you'll be to Him, which is the Minstry of Christ an Him crucified.

in the mean, i forgive you for your unseemingly post, as we are all working out our own salvation;s with fear and trembling.

Fear God an recognize His sovereignity in all matters, which includes dealing with all falsehoods and 'wolves' and 'empty rain clouds'.

in Jesus' Strength, neil

pa o





 2010/10/7 22:39
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2091


 Re: "experts" into Rick Warren-itis

Quote, "Can someone:

1. List those specific allegations.
2. Provide specific citations from his books/words/sermons upon which the allegation is based upon.
3. Please indicate where YOU gathered or accessed the allegation/information/evidence (so that we can verify if this was done from personally testing/proving Rick Warren's statements -- or if this is repeating allegations made by someone else)."

One well researched book is, "Redefining Christianity: Understanding the Purpose Driven Life Movement".

Description of the book

The author of this book examines The Purpose Driven Church, The Purpose Driven Life, and the business system that Rick Warren has developed to promote it around the world. He looks carefully at his claims, his use of scripture, his integration of human wisdom with scripture, and his ability to get thousands of pastors to convert from expository Bible preaching to being Purpose Driven. In the end he compares Rick Warren’s version of “church health” with that of Jesus Christ. The reader will see how Rick Warren has indeed redefined Christianity.

One person wrote this about DeWaay's book,

"This book is a resourceful & painstaking effort on behalf of the author to methodically outline & expose the fundamental flaws with the Purpose Driven Movement. No stone is left unturned as chapter by chapter the problems with Rick Warren's best selling book are laid bare.

The book certainly goes beyond `food for thought' as Mr. DeWaay persistently & effectively shines the light of God's holy word into many of the PDL myths... shaking it to its very foundation. When all is said & done...the verdict presented here...as is consistent with scripture...reveals a foundation which is weak & erroneous ...lacking in sound doctrine & theological accuracy.

Many PDL readers believe Warren's seeker sensitive approach is harmless...inspired only by a sincerity to bring the lost into the church & see God's kingdom increased...& from the all outward appearances...that may seem to be the case. However after reading "Redefining Christianity' a sincere, genuine God seeking seeker will be hard pressed to come to that conclusion when presented with the overwhelming & abundant evidence that undoubtedly proves otherwise. The author exalts scripture over public opinion & reminds the reader to examine any Christian leader's doctrine over popularity.

Chapter 10 certainly offers the `slam dunk' on the matter & ever so graciously points us back to Christ as the leader of the church, church movements or reformations...& there again Mr. DeWaay skillfully lays out the earmarks from scripture of a healthy church.

If one is genuinely looking to gain a beneath the surface look into the heart of the PDL beliefs & even more importantly...whether those beliefs are biblically based...Mr. DeWaay's book will get you there from start to finish. This book has drawn a bold line in the sand...creating a well pronounced division between `easy believism' & the `hard to believe' stance. If you're searching for definitive answers...you won't be disappointed.

Above all else, what is most notable about this book is that it's penned by the heart of a true shepherd, who obviously cares deeply for the spiritual well being of God's sheep." (More reviews of the book may be seen on Amazon's website).

Bob DeWaay has also made available more than 15 Radio Broadcasts exposing the myths and lies of R.W.
Those may be found at the following link:
http://cicministry.org/radio_series.php?series=redefining

If an individual has not done any research himself into the false teachings of R.W.,why does the individual expect others to. And then at the same time cast doubt upon those who have. The body ministers to,edifies,and protects itself, as all living organisms do. Glory be His Name!

One other who has done extensive research and labored to come to the knowledge of the truth re: R.W. and others like him,so that he might serve Christ's body and that they might be on guard,is Eric Barger. He founded Take A Stand! Ministries and has many resources available on his site.
Two such resources are DVD seminars on,
1) The Errors of the Emergent Church(R.W. is named and quoted in this seminar along with many other deceivers),and 2)The Death of Discernment - How The Shack Became the #1 Bestseller in Christianity.

Below are links to get those DVD's.

http://www.ericbarger.com/tasstore/info.pgs/emergent.info.htm

http://www.ericbarger.com/tasstore/info.pgs/discernment.info.htm

"Ignorance is the mother of error".

So let us not be ignorant as some would have us, "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices(2 Cor. 2:11).

But let us rather be exhorted to, "walk as children of light; (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, and righteousness, and truth;) Proving what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are reproved, are made manifest by the light: for whatever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give thee light.
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is(Eph. 5:8b-17).

Thanks be to God...as His Spirit speaks to His children regarding all these things.

Amen.

 2010/10/8 0:34Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Sadly this thread just keeps getting bigger and bigger, it seems to have no end. I am curious as to how many other "Rick Warren" threads there are that have been that simply start and end in blantant accusations not only of the individual talked about but of also the Brothers and Sisters that post on the thread. I am neither for nor against Mr.Warren, but I do ask for peace and unity to be restored in this matter, and if there is going to be converstaion to the very least leave the name calling and accusations out.

God is full of Grace, but He is also full of Justice, If Mr.Warren is in the wrong Christ in His Justice will have His Vengence, its not the job of the Saints of Christ to pull out their claws for the sake of "Justice" and tear someone to bits with their tongues. It is the job of the Saints yes to uphold the Truth but we are to also be intercessors for the Lost and those that stray from the Gospel, We are to be quick to interceed and slow to give our opninions of a Man who professes to be a brother in Christ.

Lets not forget that Christ has dealt with us all graciously and mercifully, and we are to act likewise to our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2010/10/8 0:51Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

My request from my previous post:

Can someone:

1. List those specific allegations.

2. Provide specific citations from his books/words/sermons upon which the allegation is based upon.

3. Please indicate where YOU gathered or accessed the allegation/information/evidence (so that we can verify if this was done from personally testing/proving Rick Warren's statements -- or if this is repeating allegations made by someone else).

Quote:

One well researched book is, "Redefining Christianity". Bob DeWaay has also made available more than 15 Radio Broadcasts exposing the myths and lies of R.W.
Those may be found at the following link:
http://cicministry.org/radio_series.php?series=redefining

If an individual has not done any research himself into the false teachings of R.W.,why does the individual expect others to. And then at the same time cast doubt upon those who have. The body ministers to,edifies,and protects itself, as all living organisms do. Glory be His Name!

One other who has done extensive research and labored to come to the knowledge of the truth re: R.W. and others like him,so that he might serve Christ's body and that they might be on guard,is Eric Barger. He founded Take A Stand! Ministries and has many resources available on his site.
Two such resources are DVD seminars on,
1) The Errors of the Emergent Church(R.W. is named and quoted in this seminar along with many other deceivers),and 2)The Death of Discernment - How The Shack Became the #1 Bestseller in Christianity.

Below are links to get those DVD's.

http://www.ericbarger.com/tasstore/info.pgs/emergent.info.htm

http://www.ericbarger.com/tasstore/info.pgs/discernment.info.htm

"Ignorance is the mother of error".

So let us not be ignorant as some would have us, "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices(2 Cor. 2:11).

But let us rather be exhorted to, "walk as children of light; (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, and righteousness, and truth;) Proving what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are reproved, are made manifest by the light: for whatever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give thee light.
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is(Eph. 5:8b-17).

Thanks be to God...as His Spirit speaks to His children regarding all these things.

Amen.



I take it from this post that you were answering request #3 -- because it seems that you are saying that you gathered such allegations, information and evidence from the secondhand sources that you listed in the body of your post...which was NOT from your having personally reviewed Rick Warren's books, sermons or material. If that is correct, please let me know.

Still, I am interested in responses to the first two requests. These are very broad and drastic judgments levied against this man. It would be helpful to review each SPECIFIC allegation -- and the citations from which it was gathered -- in order to understand how such a judgment was reached.

I certainly would not want to be guilty of pronouncing eternal judgment upon a person simply by reading someone else's allegations and the evidence that they claim to have gathered. I am just interested in the specific allegations that are levied against him, the firsthand evidence upon which those allegations are based, and whether those allegations were entirely your own or reflect the views of a third person. Then, I can research those allegations to see if they are factually correct by researching Warren's own words, contacting him for clarity (if necessary) and possibly making an attempt to gently restore him if he is in the wrong.

Thanks,
-Chris
II Timothy 2:15
I Thessalonians 5:21
Galatians 6:1


_________________
Christopher

 2010/10/8 0:56Profile









 Re: Rick Warren


Hi Chris,

Surely, 'test everything', means to compare it to scripture? How would contacting a liar, and finding that he claims to adhere to the word of God, count as a 'test'?

The only thing it has tested is whether he has a good memory.

 2010/10/8 13:05









 Re:

Alive to God brings out a good point.

I would like to say further, it's easy to spot a false prophet when he is speaking falsely, but what about the ones that we think are in tune with God when in fact they probably are in league with the devil. It's these guys that we should have discernment for, not the obvious ones.

 2010/10/8 13:13
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


 Re:

Hi Alive-to-God...

Quote:

Hi Chris,

Surely, 'test everything', means to compare it to scripture? How would contacting a liar, and finding that he claims to adhere to the word of God, count as a 'test'?

The only thing it has tested is whether he has a good memory.



First of all, we haven't made a conclusion that he is a "liar" -- at least, in regard to the specific allegations that no one has specifically laid out. Of course, "all men are liars" (at least, in haste (Psalm 116:11).

Secondly, we have nothing to compare. No one has actually laid out the specific allegations. I just keep hearing the conclusion, verdict, judgment or whatever everyone wants to call it. No one has laid out the specific allegations, the first hand sources from which they were gathered, and stated whether these were gathered from personal discovery or attained from other websites that are critical of the man.

It isn't enough to present conclusions. If we are to utter such things, then it is important that the specific allegations are presented (clearly) and with citations to the actual place that we can find the statements in question. I think that it is important to also know WHERE the allegations were first uncovered -- so that we would know whether there is any repetition of claims that might be based upon something other than the evidence.

As I stated before, I am not a fan of Rick Warren. I just don't know enough about the man. I am concerned however with the amount of rhetoric that is directed at him that appears to be "reading between the lines" or based upon less-than-credible secondhand evidence. In my limited research of accusatory websites, I have seen quite a bit of conclusions presented in regard to Rick Warren...but very little real evidence to substantiate those conclusions.

In addition, I have also noticed animosity directed at those who will not immediately accept such a judgment or allegations at face value. If someone wants to tell me that Rick Warren (or any other person) is a "false prophet," a "heretic," or a "devil" (I have seen those specific words), then they need to honestly present the evidence upon which they base their claims. If they can't, then they probably need to remain quiet until they can at least substantiate their accusations with firsthand sources.

For example: There are some questionable preachers who have been discussed here at SermonIndex. I don't accept much of what Benny Hinn teaches. However, this came after a personal examination of Hinn's own words. In past discussions, I (and others) have even pointed out those concerns with SPECIFIC statements and citations in the past. There were even links to Benny Hinn's own books, letters, website, sermons and YouTube videos that showed Benny Hinn explicitly making those statements. These were firsthand sources.

For some reason, I haven't seen the same level of specific scrutiny with Rick Warren. I have seen conclusions and judgments, with little-to-no specific evidence upon how that conclusion was ascertained. In one case, someone uttered some specific words, and I attempted to verify them. It turned out that the "quote" was not accurate. In another case, someone claimed that Rick Warren had a goal to create a "one world religion." Again, no specific evidence substantiated this, and Rick Warren's ministry representative explained that this was grossly untrue.

If we are going to entertain such accusations, we need to separate the mud from the water in order to determine was is true and what is untrue. We should not be so bold as to make a accusatory statement and then expect others to simply accept it without presenting any concrete evidence. Does that make sense?


_________________
Christopher

 2010/10/8 13:49Profile





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