| Re: |
I should just clarify something really quick too. I do have something a bit personal against Mr. Warren's teaching. I have absolutely nothing against him personally, but as far as his teaching goes, we start having problems.
Japan is a nation filled up with copycats. They'll admit this. It's no secret. For the most part, anything that's been invented and has been successful in another country, they will study down to a science, and then they'll imitate it, and try to improve on it (usually successfully). That's what they're good at.
Now let's talk about the Japanese Bible. The Japanese Bible that most have, is written in such an archaic Japanese, that mostly no one can figure out what it's talking about. The main points they get. But many often tell me it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense when they read it. Some even tell me they can understand my English translation (NASB, which isn't always grammatically the easiest to understand itself) better than they can in their own language. And that's bad, because they really don't have a solid grasp on English to begin with.
Sound Biblical exegesis out of a Japanese Bible? Sorry. Even my pastor at times asks to use my English Bible instead, so he gets a better idea of what's being said. But he understands English.
So where does that put the one who doesn't?
Into the hands of successful looking American Church growth specialists, who talk a fancy game, and present new ways of looking at the truths that they can't understand from their own Bibles. After all, the Japanese are impressed by success. Purpose Driven must be right, yeah? Look at how many copies it sold. The author believes he's right. It must be what the Bible says.
I was asked one time what type of preachers I liked listening to. I said Paul Washer. The response was something like, "He's that young guy who speaks really strait forward and doesn't tell any jokes, right?"
Yeah, that's probably him.
So then I asked, what's popular in Japan amongst Christians? (Remember as non-Catholic believers go, in NAME ONLY there is less than 0.5% or so in Japan)
There were two answers.
Your Best Life Now, and Purpose Driven.
They were shocked when I started explaining to them why these teachings did not, would not, and could not line up with Scripture. And they even began to say, "Wait, Mr. Osteen and Mr. Warren actually teach that? That doesn't line up with the Gospel message we know to be true!" (This is all paraphrased mind you) Now the people I was talking to actually hadn't read either of the books as far as I'm aware, they just knew that those were the ones that all the Christians were reading, and promoting here.
Americans think the sphere of influence only goes as far as America, and the English speaking world. Only in the last judement will we really see that debt and the damage caused by this sort of teaching.
There's a nation of silent children (in a spiritual sense) who are young, and ignorant, and trusting, and so quick to believe what America tells them. They're watching every move the church in America makes, the same way a small boy would quietly watch his older brother practice baseball, and then try to imitate his every move from a distance. He does this because he looks up to him, and trusts him, and wants to be just like him. Here in Japan they want the Gospel to be real to them like it appears to be to their big brother Americans. And many don't even have a way to discern by the Word and standard of God.
I really believe there's going to be a price to pay to these Gospel ignorant nations, and for the deception fed to them. More so than for the deception brought on the American church who had the resources right in their hands to see what was wrong with it.
I pray for the man to repent of this false gospel that's been presented. But, for all those who think it's better just to say nothing about anti-Biblical error and refer to it as "grace" or something like that, please, take the blinders off, and come visit us here in our Gospel ignorant nations, and see how much of that "grace" sticks after you look upon the abused body of Christ, and are able to identify one of the hands that are responsible for the beatings.
Then again, this is only in the church of Japan. I haven't even gotten into the overwhelming need for Spirit's drawing in of the lost over here. That's been more on my mind as of late.
(And let me reiterate, I'm not against the man, I'm for him. But because I'm for both him, and for the body of Christ, I CANNOT be also for anything he's been teaching or anything Purpose Driven. Those of you who have experienced the loving rod of the Lord in correction will understand this perfectly. The rest will call it mudslinging and pharisitical.)
| 2010/10/7 10:51|
| Re: |
Thank you for your explaination and clarification! It definitely helps understand where you are coming from. :)
It makes sense, I know that the number of Christians in Japan is very small and those that profess Christianity being decieved is just salt to an open wound. I had no idea that the Japanese bible was hard to understand, I guess we take for granted the accessibleness of the English Translations that are clear and easy to read, perhaps you could begin a Japanese Translation that is easier to understand :)
| 2010/10/7 11:15||Profile|
| Re: |
I had no idea that the Japanese bible was hard to understand, I guess we take for granted the accessibleness of the English Translations that are clear and easy to read, perhaps you could begin a Japanese Translation that is easier to understand :)
If some day God gave me the grace, patience, and most importantly ability (my Japanese is atrocious) that would actually be awesome. However, translations of anything into Japanese is borderline nightmarish. My pastor has told me several times how lucky I am to be able to preach in English. And how great he thinks it would be to be able to preach in English. The reason for this is that because culturally and linguistically it's actually a bit tricky to say anything in Japanese, especially to an audience of mixed ages.
Japanese is an honorific language, so what you say changes, depending on who you're talking to, how old they are, and what their social standard is in comparison to yours. And by changes, I mean CHANGES. The children here are taught somewhat of a different language that is EXCLUSIVELY only appropriate for children to use. Now people will use child speech in their own home, but you could never preach that way.
And this is really only the beginning of the difficulties. I'd love to see some changes in regards to this, but those types of changes are a bit of a long time coming. But I agree with you man, it would be great to have a translation that actually made decent sense here.
| 2010/10/7 11:25|
| Re: |
No, David didn't use the words "immediate near future." He said it was "about to happen," in March of 2009. Practically he encouraged us to go ahead and store up a 30 day food supply, as the Lord had so directed him. While he said he did not know when these things would come to pass, he knew they weren't far off.
So, while yes, there could in theory still be validity to this word, I'm personally willing to ascribe it as a miss. And I'm guessing quite a bit of the food he would've bought at the time to store up for this calamity has since expired, or even gone bad.
But I think Wilkerson has given up on giving time specific words these days anyway. Especially since once upon a time he gave a word that TBN would be bankrupt by a specific date, and would go off the air. Of course, this did not happen.
But like I said, I'm not trying to hound Wilkerson here. I'm just saying, although I'm not a big Rick Warren fan for a variety of reasons, I'm not against his sermons being on this site. I'm not against them being on this site any more than I am David Wilkerson's messages, even though Wilkerson has gone into such deep error as to announce a thus saith the Lord over things about the future, and those things not come to pass. I'm just saying, if you are going to kick Warren out, you might as well toss Wilkerson out too. The way I see it, both have their share of error.
| 2010/10/7 12:21||Profile|
| Re: |
So, then, if any Japanese come to the LORD and live victoriously, it is even of a greater miracle then the one who has access to the WORD in a language that is readily understood....WOW!
Just a comment concerning Rick Warren, celebrity preachers AND ordinary ones...
In my lifetime of 63 years I have put preachers, including ordinary ones - ones not known outside of their community of Believers or physical community - on a pedestal. They taught well. I loved their insights and the methods they used in sharing them. Eventually, God knocked that pedestal down and my opinions of him would smash into a thousand pieces. You see, I was idolizing the person and that is a violation of the first commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Today, I still have favorite preachers. I love to listen to Washer, e.g., but I know right well that depending on what subject he may get onto, my opinion may go to the basement...Now, where does this leave a body?
I look at preachers as human beings used by God who are of like passions as we. They also need a Savior - everyday. They are people who also need to die daily. My grandpa, who was my favorite preacher for many years, got knocked off of the pedestal good and proper. God still used him. He never taught false doctrine, he was just a human that had to deal with the flesh as do others and sometimes he messed up - not gross sin, but the flesh got in the way at times.
I am thankful for men and women who are brave enough to teach the WORD and not allow their own human weakness deter them from this mission. We who are the beneficiaries of their ministry must be like the Bereans to check out the Scriptures to see whether these things are so and act accordingly.
Confused yet? Do I like Warren and Wilkerson? I am like Chris - I have never read Warren; Wilkerson, yes, but...
My testimony and opinion....
| 2010/10/7 16:53||Profile|
| Re: |
I think that we should be extremely careful before we go out and shoot arrows at someone who calls himself a brother.
We should rather be extremely careful to go out and shoot arrows at every a wolf in sheep's clothing coming towards the flock (such as Rick Warren) as soon as we notice him. For not doing so would give the enemy a chance to do great damage to the sheep. Failure to discern and to adequately deal with false teachers is a sign of failed shepherds.
Clearly, Rick Warren is a man of influence and affluence, so it should not be surprising that you have followers and advocates of his in these forums. What should be surprising, however, and very alarming is that the administrators/moderators don't see a problem with Warren's leaven being spread through SermonIndex. Who will be next? Maybe Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Pope Benedict maybe...?
Yes, we need to pray very sincerely that Warren truly has repented and believe that God will not continue to use him as a judgement on the undiscerning church, and hope that he doesn't fall like other men before him.
I don't know if we should "pray... that Warren has truly repented." If the man repents, he has a lot of public confessions to make and a lot of evil to undo so this will not go unnoticed. For the time being he truly is "a judgement on the undiscerning church". But we should not be deceived: while there may be some lost sheep still led by Warren (and men like him), the majority of his followers are not Christians--these people have accepted another gospel, which is not a gospel.
He's an extremely nice guy, who is trying to do the work of God, but he's wrong. He needs to turn to the Scriptures and use his influence for the real Gospel, not the Purpose Driven one.
I don't know but I can never think of Rick Warren as an "extremely nice guy"--the man disgusts me. In secular terms, maybe. But we should use words with their true meaning, not with the meaning secular folk attribute to them. As for the "trying to do the work of God" part, I doubt that he is even trying. Or, rather, he IS trying to do the work of his god, "the prince of the power of the air." With all the support Pastor Warren's agenda is getting at all levels (the media, politicians, the corporate world, the religious crowd, etc.), it is clear he is part of and accountable to the New World Order, with Rome at its center.
| 2010/10/7 17:54|
| please Brethern |
how does this thread bring Glory to God?
really...consider our ways, "i follow Paul, i follow Appolos"...ya'll know what i mean.
i beg you all, pleeeease, let my humble entreaty be the last post...not for me, but for Jesus, could ya?
| 2010/10/7 18:19|
| Re: please Brethern |
How is God glorified by the upholding of falsehood? How is the true God glorified by His people tolerating false teachers and false doctrine? Doesn't this present a false picture of who God is?
Let me remind you that both Paul and Appolos were true disciples of Christ and teachers of the Gospel. So choosing to follow either of them was a sign of the Corinthians' carnality, but nothing near "following false teachers", which Paul himself warned the churches about. You just cannot place Rick Warren next to either Paul, or Appolos, for God Himself testified that these were His true servants. In other words, we have a different kind of division in this thread: not a division of true followers of Christ, but a conflict between disciples of Christ and advocates of the false gospel of Rick Warren.
Before trying to disrupt a conversation, you should fist get to understand the arguments. A heated debate is not inherently sinful. If you are concerned about the glory of God, should you not seek and approve the things that God approves? Trying to shut down a conversation when you lack discerment is shameful.
| 2010/10/7 18:43|
| Re: |
Link to the Rick Warren sermon on this site would greatly be appreciated. Thanks
| 2010/10/7 18:55|
| Re: |
No, David didn't use the words "immediate near future." He said it was "about to happen," in March of 2009.
The sad thing about prophets is that when they receive something like this it become real to them that they believe that the thing they seen is going to take place right away. It's such a shock to the system as it were that one would think that it was going to happen that very day or soon afterward.
Now Brother Wilkerson is a credible prophet of God. What he wrote in the Vision 1974 has come to pass and there are just a few other key notes that have not come to pass. He has said some other things sometime later and though he believed that what he saw was imminent may be sometime down the road.
The Old Testament prophets could have easily been discounted as their prophecies were not fulfilled until Christ came on the scene and some of those prophecies were thousands of years old. But a good many mocked them in between times saying, "Where is the promise of His coming".
No, Brother Wilkerson is of God, even though he may miss the mark at times. And who here has not?
| 2010/10/7 19:07|