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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860


"But God has called us to stick at it, and in patience, forgiving wrong doing, to build up one another in the most holy faith, once and for all delivered to the saints. We are to strengthen the hands of the weak, and help each other become the people God would have us to be. Speaking the truth in love, we are to be iron sharpening iron, as together we seek the glory of God out, and make His name great amongst the nations. That takes a radical love, a love I believe many lack. And because they lack it, they cannot stick it out and commit to one another in this process."

And you call the Remnant believers idealist :) What are your thoughts on Home Fellowships then? Are they in the wrong for leaving the typical Local Church? I ask this because I am trying to get a feel for what your thoughts on the definition of Local Church maybe. If there is going to be any disagreement with you and I it would be in this instance of definition, because I believe one shouldn't "forsake the assembly" as a Lone Ranger type thing but we also have the freedom in Christ to decide which "Assembly" we enteract with.

Matthew Guldner

 2010/10/2 21:40Profile

Joined: 2007/10/28
Posts: 1232
United States


Amen Travis!

yes the church has it's issues, but "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it!"

There IS a remnant!

We are not married to the "church." but unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. The hope of glory. It's only by His mercy that He chooses us to be His bride.


 2010/10/2 21:42Profile

Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC


I am all for house Churches. No, I don't believe they are wrong to leave a local fellowship and start another. Such is simply Church planting. As long as they are not doing it out of a schismatic spirit, but are looking to simply honor the Lord in establishing a Church plant, I think it's a great idea.

But those who are doing such a thing should really examine themselves to make sure they are doing it with right motives. If their motive is, "I'm mad at my present fellowship, therefore I am starting a house Church," then I believe such persons are in error. If their motive is, "I believe the Lord is calling me to start a new Church," then I say, have at it.

Jimmy H

 2010/10/2 21:45Profile


Brother Jimmy,

The real local church may just be the one that is not in the yellow pages. It is not for man to say. God knows the candlesticks in each city. And I don't think you can point to an organization or even a house church and say this is the candlestick in this city. The Lord knoweth them that are his. (from 2 Tim 2:19)

Obviously, God has had a remnant in each generation that does not bow the knee to Baal. That is why there are men of God today that still preach a pure message and don't worry about upsetting people because they may lose some income.

The Lord actually commands us to come out of Babylon.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Babylon is not just Rome, Babylon is the entire religious system that opposes God. All you have to do to oppose God is just do your own thing, execute your own agenda. He that is not with me is against me.

Somewhere along the line man said, "Ok Lord, we know how to do this, we'll take it from here". And that is where all the problems come from. From the attitude, "We'll take it from here". Thank you Holy Spirit, but my seminary can teach me everything now.

Psa 127:1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

In other words, a "house" can be built that was not built by Him. Are we building a "house", without Him?

Coming out of a system built by man is ok, and even commanded. And let me also say, you can have a religious system right in the middle of your living room. The religious system is in the heart and hearts are in a building whether it be a house or church building or school cafeteria. God commands us to come out of religious Babylon. It opposes God and exalts itself above Him, by taking His place in the lives of His people.

There are precious Saints in some organizations, in fact they are all over the place. Many read their Bible and then feel a disconnect when they hear "preaching" in their church. What they sense is the whole counsel of God is not being preached and followed, especially followed. They usually end up leaving, because they feel like they are withering inside.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Many people leave the "system" because they are grieved, and many are leading lives of quiet desperation because what they want is koinonia but what they get is activities and programs. It is a vicious cycle that many of these organizations find themselves in, too, but they cannot stop or change because it will mean the end of their livelihood. The sheep are paying a tithe and the organization feels that they must create quality programs to keep people motivated and interested and from going down the road to the other church that is marketing itself in a better way. I have seen many of these signs on the road. Just look in the Saturday paper or in the yellow pages to see how these organizations compete with each other for followers. It is absolute insanity to have two churches on the same block across the street from each other, both claiming they love Jesus and yet they never get together with each other. And they actually have animosity against each other.

What the people of God really need, is fellowship and love and care and truth and not having to be fleeced for it.

God has strong words for the religious system. It is not wrong to point out counterfeits, but it is wrong to attack men. Our warfare is not with flesh and blood. But Satan uses flesh and blood to deceive and fleece the Saints and bring them into bondage.

I have seen very few Believers that have "organized" themselves and kept free from using the ministry as a paid profession. Zac Poonen's, CFC India, comes to mind. I think every elder works and that is a very good thing.

The wilderness that some speak of is many times, inside the religious system, not outside it. Like I said, many are dying slow deaths, starving for His life.

Jesus was pushed outside of the camp. The camp in the NT was Jerusalem. Every part of society pushed Him out, and especially the religious camp. Today, the religious camp is pushing Saints out. And the Word even tells us to go outside the camp, because that is where we will find Jesus (Hebrews 13:13). Many people that leave religious institutions suffer reproach but that is ok. Let us go forth therefore unto HIM without the camp, bearing his reproach. Where is He? He is outside the camp. Yes, sadly, Jesus is still outside the camp, outside the religious system. He is not really welcome there. He is just used for people's own ends. What Believers eventually come to realize is that Jesus is not really welcome there.

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Jimmy, what is happening today, is being orchestrated by the Holy Spirit. He is calling people out of anything that does not glorify Him, out of anything that does not make Him preeminent, out of everything where the Centrality of Jesus Christ is not reality.

People do need to judge if they are where God wants them to be and we all need to be free from the fear of man so that we can follow the Lord when He calls.

The Word judges Babylon and says many harsh things about her. We can agree with the Word, yet encourage people to get all religious systems out of their heart. In many cases, this even entails leaving a physical location or group of people.

Jer 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
Jer 9:2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.
Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.

Yes, "they know not me, saith the Lord".

Brother, ever since Adam and Eve tried to cover themselves with leaves (their own righteousness), there has been a religious system.

From Genesis to Revelation there is the true Church of God and there is the Synagogue of Satan counterfeiting the Church. We see finally in Revelation what is to become of the false religious system. We just need to make sure it has no place in us.

I reiterate, the religious system can even be in your own living room, not just a church building.

The Word still stands. "Come out of her my people".

Jeremiah 23, Ezekiel 34

 2010/10/2 22:23

Joined: 2007/10/28
Posts: 1232
United States


Psa 127:1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

I actually almost posted this exact same verse..Praise the Lord.

May He preserve us from doing this.

"God has strong words for the religious system. It is not wrong to point out counterfeits, 'but it is wrong to attack men.' Our warfare is not with flesh and blood."


 2010/10/2 22:36Profile

Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada


Jimmy said, "But God has called us to stick at it..."

Stick at what, Jimmy?

What about His call to "come out of her, My people..." (Rev. 18.4).

God never ordained the denominatinal system in the first place. I know, He has used it, and He uses men who are in it. Of course He does. His people are there.

But there comes a time when He says loud and clear, "COME OT OF HER MY PEOPLE..."

Come out of her... who? The rebels? The heretics? No. Come out of her MY PEOPLE.

I am all for the assembling together of the saints. But if people would lay that to heart -- that Scripture about not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, Heb. 10.25 -- they would be leaving the denominational system in droves! That's not what the Holy Spirit means by being assembled together!

I remember once a brother talking about this, and using an illustration from boyhood. He said he used to love building models, cars and planes and so on... and he'd look at the beautiful picture of the model on the box... How beautiful that '57 Chevy looked. But then it would say, "Assembly required."

THAT's true assembling: being fit together so that each individual part is functioning in the capacity the designer had in mind for it when he made it, and so becomes a vital part of a beautiful whole.

Just because you have all those parts together in the box does not mean they are assembled.

Just because you have a hundred or a thousand Christians in a big... "box" does not mean they are assembled.

And that's what's happening in this hour, Jimmy. That's why people are leaving. People are leaving "the box" because they are tired of being isolated RIGHT THERE IN THE BOX, tired of being just jumbled together with a whole bunch of other parts that aren't really fitting together the way the Designer intended. They are feeling unfulfilled, and they are leaving. It's of GOD. He is the one who has put it into the hearts of His people to become ASSEMBLED in beautiful unity... to the praise of His glory.

Sure, at this time we are not seeing that quite yet. The home churches themselves have not yet become assembled the way God has in mind. But they are going to be. More and more as we learn to give the ASSEMBLER His Lordship in our midst, we are going to see a beautiful -- and fearsome -- manifestation of the living CHRIST in the midst of His people... I mean in every single one of them from the least to the greatest.

Allan Halton

 2010/10/2 22:44Profile

Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada


I just want to add that when I posted my last entry, I saw Pilgrim's post in which he quoted the same Scripture, "Come out of her my people."

I had not read it before. We must have been writing these two posts at the same time.

And I say Amen to your whole post, Pilgrim.

"In the mouth of two or three witnesses..."

Allan Halton

 2010/10/2 22:53Profile


The problem is that people think that going to church on Sunday, singing a few songs, taking up an offering, and listening to one or maybe two people preach week after week after week all in an hour to hour and a half service constitues fellowship.

It might be helpful to define "assembling together" and "fellowship" to see if those who say they have it on their Sunday meetings in fact really do have it. I have a feeling that most people are diluded into thinking what they do every week is fellowship when in all reality it's nothing more than a "service".

(Also, I wanted to say AMEN to your post ADisciple.)

 2010/10/2 23:23


Amen AD amd Pilgrim,

"Jimmy, what is happening today, is being orchestrated by the Holy Spirit. He is calling people out of anything that does not glorify Him, out of anything that does not make Him preeminent, out of everything where the Centrality of Jesus Christ is not reality.

People do need to judge if they are where God wants them to be and we all need to be free from the fear of man so that we can follow the Lord when He calls."

This is the key statement above, what is happening today is being orchestrated by the Holy Spirit, not by men. There is a hungry , thirsty remnant and they will " come out of her." Some people will never understand this, and that's okay. This is no " anti," movement, its a pro, making Jesus the preeminent, movement. Will religious men oppose this? Yes of course. Their job is to protect the status quo.

This is where it is so vital to be able to hear the Lord. If one cannot hear the Lord and be guided by that, then all one has is information, and can only fall back on their own understanding and the understanding of Frank

 2010/10/2 23:36


It need to be asked.

Are we looking at others critically and comparing ourselves to them?

Comparing ourselves to others about us indicates legalism within ourselves. It's the quick road in falling from grace. Paul himself says it is really dumb to compare ourselves with ourselves. WE are to always and ever look to Jesus, ". . . who endured the contradiction . . ."

WE too, in the renewal of our minds, are to let this mind be in us which was also in Christ Jesus.

He healed and saved how many thousands while on earth, yet we read that there were only 120 praying when the New Advent of Pentecost blew in.

Just because another seems so wrong in our eyes, what about us compared to Jesus?

There has been another extreme experienced which is also faulty. Those who group themselves off from the rest of Christendom tend to develop a case of ingrown eyeballs, seeing everything myopically, and the rest of the world, as most of them say, is going to hell. . .

We are not recieved by God because of our perfection.
Perfect people don't need a Saviour.
It's the sick that need the doctor.

It has been realized that both groups are doing the very same thing in different ways.

It is one thing to be considered part of something that is not proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ, all this talk ABOUT God, and another to be part of a group of followers that is intent on spreading the how and why regarding the good news of the Kingdom of God coming.

Is our intent in manifesting His Faithfulness, irregardless what we ourselves should not dare to think about another human (JUST LIKE US) that God has created IN HIS IMAGE?

Are we, like Jesus, about our Father's business, or does it boil down to the consideration of "what's in it for me?"

IF Jesus has indeed shed His love abroad in our hearts, then faith(fulness) to God will be working through this. WE will be growing further into thinking, walking and talking as Jesus does. As He is, so we are exhorted to remain in this world.

Think about what you think you believe, but in actually merely agree with or only affirm.
Drop everything that is not part of what you do, and get the focus back on the Author and Finisher of our faith(fulness).

Let's fix our attention on Jesus Christ, the one who freely offered His own body and blood so that we will live in Him.

If we ourselves do not keep this as our first emphasis, we are walking away from God and not towards Him. Jesus, is not only our Salvation, but our sanctification and glory.

Don't get off this track or your train, in the best case scenario can come skidding to a halt.
Sadly, the worst case scenario has been seen happen time and again: crash and burn.

It's one thing to be sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that God told you to do something, and another to follow the passions of our emotions and attitudes (aka: LUST). Respectively, the first brings us close with other following sheeple and seperates us FROM THE WORLD (not the true church); the second is idolatry.

Jesus died for us, so that we will in like manner die to our selves and live for Him.

Let's just do this and see the power of God manifest through obedience to His WORD.

The Lord looks for a pure peaceful people who walk in the love of Jesus Christ.

Let's just do it.

Pray. . .
. . . not towards your wants and needs, but in (pro)claiming God's will towards His coming Kingdom. Watch and see just how many things we need are taken care of through this, before we ever have to bother to ask, much less even think about such.


 2010/10/3 8:42

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