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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Michael Brown and James White defend the doctrine of the Trinity

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THis is neither an argument or even up for debate, this is especially a revelation that a human being must get from God alone.

That's interesting. So far I've noticed,in this thread, that no matter what persuasion someone has about the Godhead they all same the exact same thing above.

 2010/9/30 22:06

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708


God knows exactly how man is put together, He did it. Adam was born a living soul, with a mind to make decisions and choices. Adam made his choice, thus choosing the spirit by whom he would obey. Adam did not have a spirit, he chose to believe a lie and Satan became his father and all his descendents. Christ is, if we believe that He is the Son of God now our Spirit, not our soul, but our spirit, that is what the word of God is for to divide the soul and spirit that we might claim by the birthing of the Spirit of Christ in us, now we are sons of God and not sons of Satan, Satan out and Christ in. Now we have the Spirit of Christ a new creation in Him. Now we need to renew our minds to this great miracle which God planned before foundation of the world, which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory", Eph 1:4 and Col 1:27.

Our soul is now taught and ruled by the Holy Spirit the New and another Comforter in us, now forever. This is where we need new information by the renewing of our soul/mind to the Mind of Christ.

Spirit cannot be taught, only chosen, Satan life or Christ life. So where do we need to be renewed? In the spirit of our mind. Now, spirit is not in a separated room and the soul in the garage, We are one in body, soul and spirit as is God the Son in body, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit in soul, but all one God. So also is the Body of Christ, a tripartite corporate body and and individual tripartite man or woman individually part of the One Spirit and One Baptism, that is Christ.

Who saved us and gave us a new spiritual nature? Christ is our new nature and by His Spirit we are no longer slaves to sin, Satan nature. Who is saving us and where must we be renewed in the spirit of our minds, The Holy Spirit. Who will give us a new body and we will be saved in Body? The Father.

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

Paul is speaking not only of his deliverance from the beasts in Jerusalem but our deliverance unto salvation and complete in Christ, body, soul and spirit.

This is how we will become a perfect man.

Paul states it very clear, In Christ and Christ in us coming forth in us as us, this is how we do greater things than Christ did while He was here on earth, by the He that is birthed in us The Son of God, making us sons with the Same Father.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is our heritage; He will be to me a Son and I will be to him a Father.

Hebrews 1:3-5 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

So also are we in this world, as He is so are we.

In Christ: Phillip


 2010/9/30 22:57Profile


by davidc on 2010/9/30 15:52:07

Hi Gregg, welcome back
Hi David,
Quick turnabout at work let me free early.

"if you have time, define the constitution of man, based on both the Old and New testament in congruency, if possible.
From what has been learned, the heart is the inner man. God's Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Lord is the Spirit who speaks to where our affections lie (aka:heart) (volition/perception): attitudes, intellect, feelings, memory, etc."

I really don't have the ability to do what you ask, perhaps someone else could.
I think this could be part of your difficulty in not believing that the Holy Spirit and Christ are different persons of the Godhead. You believe them to be the same as you believe that the inner man and the heart are the same.
Total agreement here, and that is why it was asked in the first place . . .

. . . and pleasse, really think about this before anything else is continued in this post:

Different life experiences form perspectives from which develops perception.

Many people adhere to cultural norms because it seems safe.
The church as we know it is such a culture, the Body of Christ.

We all come from varying backgrounds yet attempt to find unity through conformity; however, conformity and blind acceptance to things not written as taught in the Bible is walking in the traditions of men. Whether what is accepted is actually the truth or less than truth, this is often done with doctrine, dogma, theology, theories, opinions, and so on.

How many are following human traditions --(making the Word of God of no effect to them)-- and how many will meditate on scripture til' revelation from God comes, and other scriptures begin to reveal a greater congruency to the whole of them?

Our knowledge and understanding of God
((and man) and the world around us)
is limited to how much we understand Genesis to Revelation. This is God's Message and revelation breathed out to man.

To most around me, unless directly instructed by God's Holy Spirit, for the often, i will not say to them things expressed here,
due to the cultural/experience/conformity/perspective/perception issue.

You say something that sounds whack and most shut-down, putting on blinders and inserting ear plugs.

You say something after that one (seeming) error, word spreads, and people just automatically hit the off switch whenever you say something.

Rather, i work with each according to their point of understanding in God's Word, namely Jesus Christ.

It is because this issue is not taught by the apostles that it is brought up, looking for greater clarity, from sensible giving forgiving loving brothers and sisters here on SI, to whom our faith is much more than a 10 minute devotional, church on Sunday, or a brief prayer . . . and off they go to other things.

Some no doubt will greatly oppose and at the same time not hear you out. Others will debate. Some will just quit reading.

No doubt what comes from these lips and fingertips furrows eyebrows, both here and abroad . . . especially when expression is of scripture, or perspective/perception of it, that they may not have even considered, particularily in relation to Jesus Christ.


I believe that my inner man or my soul is where the Holy Spirit abides. There He speaks to me of the love of God, and bears witness that I am a child of God through that one baptism. Once my soul was sold unto sin and I was an enemy of God. But Jesus paid the price to buy back my rebellious soul, and now I belong to Him. The Holy Spirit constantly tells me so. He gives me power to live. He is a full and flowing river of life in my soul. So for me, the inner man is, as you say, part of man's constitution.

The heart however is not strictly part of our constitution in the way that our soul, our spirit or our body are. The heart is the moral centre of our lives. To use a comparison - we would say that a book consists of a spine, cover and printed pages; It also has a title and an author, and usually a plot or theme. All are aspects of the book, but not in the same way. So the heart of man is his centre. It is where his treasure is. It is not physical like the body or spiritual like the soul, it is moral. And this is where Jesus dwells. When He saved me, He gave me a new moral centre as the old was corrupt, deceitful and desperately wicked (I tell you the truth). He dwells in my heart by faith. The righteousness of God is my centre and Christ is all my treasure. Day by day He makes me to grow in love. And this, all by the power of the Holy Spirit which works in the inner man.

I am not completely satisfied with what I have written that it is thoroughly scriptural. Perhaps some would say otherwise.

Far be it from me to tell you your experience of God in this way is not God at all, or something else so foolish.

God reveals Himself to each person relative to their understanding, life-situation, perception and so on. God never expects us to immediately come to Him on His level, knowing all things and so on.
(In Revelation we see a pronouncement twice about the same thing: that "the devil decieved the whole world" of which everybody has been or is still a part of that system.)
God draws us to Himself while we are still decieved, and gradually, here a little, there a little, depending on our humility and fear of Him, he shows us the hows and whys of living in His Spirit . . . untangling the mess we have made of our perception.

i write from personal study (in relation to living), and with this you may not agree, so you will be told what has been taught to me through study of OT and New, and personal experience will be left alone at this point.

(It's prayed this will be understood to avoid further confusion.)


Ruach = (the whirlwind of) feelings, emotions, and attitudes

Nephesh = (intellection) memory, rationale, reason and intuition.

Neschamah = (the body of light which) provides breath, consciousness, and the ability to commune.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Psyche = soul

Pneuma = Breath and/or spirit.


When the Bible speaks of heart, it has always come to be recognized as something relative to affections. So, often, instead of saying heart (which most do not clearly understand) i will use "seat of affections" alternately with the word heart.

(Now, Watchman Nee has a three volume book called "The Spiritual Man", which although in some ways is laced with oriental mysticism, for the most part takes the perspective of looking at man as spirit, soul, and body which is the greek psychocosmic perspective. There are few errors in the books doctrine, except perhaps where he claims tha intuition is part of the spirit, whereas i understand it to be on the fringe of the reasoning faculties, even as imagination/memory.)

i see the soul only as mind and emotions.
The intention (aka:volition, will) to do is recognized as part of spirit.
i see the heart as a composite of both spirit and soul, the Word of God dividing between the intentions and thoughts, respectively. (see Heb 4.12 to verify this). This is why i call the heart the inner man, (as in the whole constitution within man).

Interestingly, in Messianic circles associated with, the Holy Spirit is referred to as the " RUACH ha' kodesh ", which confirms what you write above. Hebrews see affections, emotions, and feelings (in that order) as the source of human action/interaction . . . because a person will not do anything that does not move through these channels.

Interesting as well, is when in China, the believers there have been noticed to often call the Holy Spirit " Resident Boss ", which also confirms what you wrote above. Orientals are a more reserved people for the most part and like to think there is a rational reason to the source of all their actions (this is the residual influence mostly of Buddhism, Shintoism, and Hinduism).

i can see how both are right in their own way considering their own cultural/experience/conformity/perspective/perception ways of leaning.
(world view)

Holy and spirit are as well none specific abstractions. This is what Westernly influenced people stick with in referring to the Spirit of God.


That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen Eph 3:16-21 (KJV)


Thanks, and i
. . . do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins. . . Col. 1.9c -14 (KJV)


(this has got me thinking seriously about praying all Paul's prayers from the epistles for the body of Christ as a whole.)

May the wealth of
our Father's grace
in Christ Jesus
be poured out
to all who read this,


 2010/9/30 23:18

Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272


Hi Greg. You wrote:
"I see the soul only as mind and emotions"

So do I, and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell there in our souls to give us the mind of Christ (Phil ch2) and to be a river of living water within us, a fountain springing up unto everlasting life.
I read Watchman Nee's book about 40 years ago and found it to be almost too precise and pedantic in specifically defining the functions of Body Soul and Spirit.

Regarding the heart, you wrote of it being the "seat of affections". A good phrase, and accurate because Christ Himself is now seated at the right hand of the Father, and this is where He calls us to commune with Him, at the throne of grace. Paul says that Christ should dwell in our hearts by faith, and the one who sits on the throne is the object of our affections.

You write that you "see the heart as a composite of both spirit and soul, the Word of God dividing between the intentions and thoughts, respectively. (see Heb 4.12 to verify this). This is why i call the heart the inner man, (as in the whole constitution within man)." Isn't that a bit 'wooly'. The passage from Hebrews says:

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."Heb 4:12-13

Here it is written that the Word of God
a) divides between soul and spirit. He discerns that which is of our soul - even though Spirit filled - and that which is of our new born spirit. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God
b) divides beween joints and marrow. Perhaps a reference to Rev 19 the future wrath of the lamb agaainst His enemies "He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God ......And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations" Rev 19:13 and 15 (KJV)
c) Is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. He knows our hearts better than we do, we are naked and opened to Him. Even if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than out hearts and knoweth all things. 1 John 3.20.

Ezekiel prophesied of this new thing that God would do for Israel and for us who by faith are partakers with them in Christ:

"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them Ezek 36:25-27 (KJV)

God's word speaks for itself. We just need to believe it and come into the experience of it.



 2010/10/1 18:24Profile


Hallo David,
Hopes and prayers are all is well.

I read Nee about 30 years ago. From what you stated, you may never have read volume three, so the comments about the oriental mysticism may not seem appropriate. (i stopped and started reading those volumes so many times, (at times checking things stated against correlary scripture, but mostly just taking a breater), that i finished it in about 2.3 years.
(It was thought to be pendantically --(Ron--Philogos caused me to learn that word)-- dry from the onset.)

Regarding my comment on Heb. 4.12, you said, "Isn't that a bit 'wooly'. The passage from Hebrews says... (then you close with Ez. 36).

No, not 'wolly' at all i was considering this the work of Jesus, The Word of God (Jn. 1.1)
...but here again, is this the work of the Spirit or the Lord Christ Jesus?
(You can see perhaps what i mean about how the Bible repeats the work of the Spirit as identical and often identified as the work of Jesus Christ alternately?)

. . . and no i did not plan that as some type of foil and/or scandelon to draw you in. (it was just noticed)

In the end of the letter you said "God's word speaks for itself", yet i look at this a bit differently perhaps. (Before the revelation of Jesus Chirst through His Holy Spirit --rhema-- of Bible writ, to me, and i consider to others as well, it's just scripture. I see God's Word as a person always, revealed by God's very spirit.

At least, perhaps, we are on the same page in considering scriptural references to 'water' of to represent the Word of God, i.e., Jn. 3.5, 4.10-14, 7.37-38; Eph. 5.25-27; Jn. 14.6 & 17.17; Is. 55; etc. . .

My emphasis was on the dividing of soul and spirit relative to thoughts and intentions, respectively. What you brought up was never intended to be the consideration of implication.

i do believe it is the work of Jesus. . .
(through His spirit, not soul nor body).

Shalom Shabbat,

 2010/10/1 19:13


p.s. it is not only Jesus who refers to Himself regarding water, but the spirit is alluded to in like manner.

 2010/10/1 19:15

Joined: 2010/6/8
Posts: 191


That is quite an insult to say that any one of us here on Sermonindex is "twisting scripture".

It is somewhat of a personal attack, if you don't agree, that's your issue brother, but no one is twisting scripture, Did God tell you HE was a trinity?

For real here, Look at the nicean council document of 325ad,

Just like were all gonna be raptrued out of here right?

The rapture theory was created 200 years ago, Ever heard of Edward Irving?

Study my brother, and keep a open heart to receive sweet understanding from the Father.

 2010/10/1 20:03Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708



"""The rapture theory was created 200 years ago, Ever heard of Edward Irving?"""

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Ever heard of Paul? 1900 years ago.

In Christ: Phillip


 2010/10/2 3:30Profile


Brother David and Phillip,

It was stated "...Heb. 4.12 for starters...", and from this beginning point we diverge.

Many say that the soul is the mind, will, and emotions (including Nee) however through scriptural proof, this has been found not to be the case. This is why 'THE WILL to do' is considered of spirit.

The Lord woke me and brought two scriptures to mind to relate, telling me that i have not answered your question and also needed to clarify something to Phillip in this.

The intentions are part and parcel of the will, most clearly seen in what Jesus to the three who were to watch and pray with Jesus before He offered Himself to God for man as the perfect sacrafice, the Lamb of God, who will remove forever the sins of the world. Jesus after having prayed the first time, found them sleeping, and having rebuked them, He said, "THE SPIRIT IN-DEED IS WILLING, but the flesh is weak," and then he told them to catch some shut-eye,
(but apparently perhaps John was awake moreso than the other two, as he is the only one who reports/testifies about words of this prayer time in John 17).

The other verse comes from Proverbs and states, "guard your heart with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of life"(KJV), or "...from it flow life and it's issues..."

( We can know that the soul of man does not produce life, but the spirit, because Adam's creation event states, "...and God breathed into him the breath of liveS..."<--plural in the Hebrew), THEN (after this), "MAN BECAME a living soul."

(It is the spirit that gives life, not the soul. 'The soul' is not exactly the mind and emotions, but displays them through 'the expression outward' of these two aspects.)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Hallo Brother Phillip,
(and again David,)

Lord willing, something might be pointed out, that may be the source of a few possible(?) mistakes (probably noticed here only?).
Please bear with me in an attempt to make bare the facts.

Now, Phillip, you wrote:
"God knows exactly how man is put together, He did it. Adam was born a living soul, with a mind to make decisions and choices. Adam made his choice, thus choosing the spirit by whom he would obey. Adam did not have a spirit, he chose to believe a lie and Satan became his father and all his descendents. Christ is, if we believe that He is the Son of God now our Spirit."

When you wrote, "...Adam did not have a spirit, he chose to believe a lie and Satan became his father and all his descendents. Christ is, if we believe that He is the Son of God now our Spirit..." a red flag popped up (literally, in my imagination).

Consider first what was written to "Leaping David" relative to Adam's creation and Jesus words.

Man was given a spirit by God to produce soul expression, ultimately physically in the creation/reproduction of lives, and this is why sexual congress is both very spiritual and very physical.

Man was created a living soul we agree, but without the spirit/breath-of, the body is dead. It is through the union of breath/spirit from God, that we all live and move through our soul. (Our soul is the middle ground between spirit and body, and it is through the breath of our God given spirits --(neschamah/pneuma)-- that life now exists.

The life (of the body) is in the blood which is circulated by the (spirit causing) breathing.

The spirit of all living things, when they cease to function on earth returns to God who gave it. The spirit of life is God's, and what lives on earth is a result of God's life-giving spirit being loaned out to all that lives.

God is Spirit and man is not, however, His spirit loaned to us allows us to live, move, and have our "being" ( = "soul").

Man does have a spirit as scripture in the original languages clearly points out, however in our dying through sin we walk seperated from this very spirit (on loan) from God.

It is only by walking in the Spirit of and through Jesus Christ. . .
(by His death, burial, and resurrection), our Logos and Creator, that we know at all anything regarding this spirit given ("breath of liveS") to ultimately reproduce Christ in the earth through obedience in His covenant(s) with us intended for all humanity and the whole world with all the natural phenomena in it as well.

(Ultimately, this is what faith(fulness) is all about: doing the will of our father instead of thinking we can act seperately/sin (=destruction/death) from His planned purpose
(which is all going as planned no matter how much of an independent individual we decieve ourselves into thinking we are.)

By the way Phillip, the graeco-roman mindset is that of tripartite, but in the beginning, this was not recognized to be so. Man is four parts. If you don't want to believe this, just throw out the Old Testament, because that very fact is the basis for all that is explained about man in that approximate 80% of the Bible.

The New Testament is not the basis for the Old Testament. The Old testament is the foundation on which the New Testament commentary of the Old rests.

Finally, Phillip, in further getting to the root of this matter, you qoute, "as He is, so are we in this world." This seems like a nebulous statement alot of people use when they really don't (or won't) understand and can't explain something clearly. So to satisfy curiousity towards greater clarity in the issues of this thread, please tell me what you mean when you use this phrase. (i should have asked Philogos the same on that New Covenant thread, but i foolishly toyed about it to my bad.) Before you answer, please look at the scripture surrounding it and understand exactly what it is referring to ... and please for this at least scratch all commentaries about this phrase as many misconstrued ideas have been seen and heard about it.
(i really do want to know what you experience and know it to mean).

Unto Him alone who is mighty to save,
all thanks and praise be.

Recounting His goodness to me in the wee hours
Leaping with laughter tears,

(made possible only via God's physical healing grace)
[what the very best specialists in this country (the top of the top orthopedic surgeons said they could never fix, He has completely restored.]

<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>

For Him who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Listen and hear what the Lord reveals.

A death knell is heard chiming far away.
Slowly gradually it grows clearer.

The time is shortly coming when a requiem is proclaimed and sung about the hierarchies many call church. . .

. . . and i heard the sound of a horn sounding over the whole earth, then a battle cry in a mighty ground shaking voice thunders, "COME YE OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND BE YE SEPERATE UNTO ME ALONE!"

Jesus prophetic High-Priestly prayer unto Lordship shall manifest among all nations, and then the end shall come. As He prayed, "Sanctify them by thy truth. Thy Word is truth," even so, by the washing of the water of the Word we are made glorious in Him, manifested in the seamless spotless pristine robes, garments without wrinkle, with which He adorns.

In a blood drenched vesture He comes with all the angels, eyes a blazing inferno, the brightness of His glory no flesh can bear to even look.

Trembling, into the valleys and dales they search for cover and in caves they try to hide. Yet there is not one thing on earth that is not made manifest in His sight. From the mouth of His two edged sword He slices asunder the nations gathered against Him.

The Spirit and the Bride say, "come to the banquet of the Lord over all the earth," and even the birds are called to the feast of Kings, through the supreme sovereign King over all the earth:
The Word of God, Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns forever and ever.


...and we all shall bow down understanding to proclaim,
"Oh Lord God Almighty, Thou hast alone, by the might of Thine own hand and the breath from thy mouth prepared a banquet before me in the presence of mine enemies."

A sense of majesty fills the air as a song awaiting this aeon's passing ages is sung. We shall hear ourselves singing this sweetest song of our redemption and salvation in Him by all the souls set free.

Hear what the Spirit says to those who can hear.

 2010/10/2 4:43

Joined: 2010/6/8
Posts: 191


Do you have any understanding of that piece of scripture brother, have you studied it, do u take it totally literal as it is written.

I say to you, Read about where the Rapture theory comes from, that is all I said, I didnt question Ithess4:13, I have heard of the Paul, in my opinion, he is the greatest christian, if you will, to ever walk the face of the earth.

But, rapture is NO where in scripture, look it up, google it b4 you just respond, this is what I have been trying to say, since I started posting on this subject....

We have learned what people in sanctuarties and churches have told or taught us, but get the truth, in all of our getting, lets get an understanding.

If you can tell me that you know Beyond and absolute shadow of a doubt that there will be such an event then , all I can say is God bless you, and we'll move on to another discussion.

 2010/10/2 14:18Profile

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