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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Michael Brown and James White defend the doctrine of the Trinity

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Joined: 2006/9/5
Posts: 94
Melbourne Australia



Your elucidation is most impressive. However could you please expound with the relevant biblical data the following statement you made in your post.

"The Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ the obedient Son is not the Father"

I think you will enjoy this. I am paraphrasing Pavel Florensky

Final destinies ! But who does not know that nearly every soul is
now infected with a more or less vulgar Origenism, with the secret
belief that one will be ultimately "forgiven" by G-d ?.. A person
created by G-d, that is, a person who is holy and absolutely valuable
in his very core, has free creative will, which is revealed as a
system of acts, i.e., as an empirical character. In this sense a
person is a character .. Denial of the Holy Trinity, aversion to it,
distance from it, deprives selfhood ( which is my " for itself " ) of
stability and makes it spin dizzily round in itself. For Gehenna is
the denial of the dogma of trinity

 2010/9/29 22:06Profile


by Notdarkyet on 2010/9/29 17:00:56

When Jesus came to earth to redeem all thing to himself, he emptied Himself from all that is God of Him . . .
. . .thus the need for the Holy Spirit, as a seperated aspect of Himself.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. JESUS did NOT empty himself of who is is,
He always was, is and will be the eternal Som of God.
Becoming a son of man did nothing to change this.

What we need here is some clarity.
This seems identical to what i just went through with Renouncer.

OK , obviously there is misunderstanding and i wrote it wrong so here we go:
(with scripture to clarify, this is what is known truth here)

Jesus Christ existed as the Word from the very beginning.
(Jn. 1.1)

He came to earth as "God with us."
(Is. 7.14 / Mt. 1.23)

He was concieved by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin.
(Mt. 1.20 / Is. 7.14)

He let go of being God to become a man, completely emptying himself of all that was God in Him to become a man.
(Phil. 2.5-7)
He became completely human. Note that through His ministry on earth, he claimed no authority for what He taught, miracles worked, or anything else of His own authority, and pointed to our Father as the source.
(Jn. 14.10, 28)
[in fact, scriptures point out limits to what Jesus could do, not only because of obedience, but because of his humaness (Mk. 6.5). God is not controlled by man's belief or unbelief.]

Just because he completely emptied himself, he did not become non-God. He was God and became completely a man...

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." (I Tim. 3.16)

This is really quite a bit more serious than most people realize, because the scriptures label antichrist any idea that Jesus was not fully human:

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
(I Jn. 4.2-3)


p.s. The Father did not declare Jesus the Son of God until after He was recieved up into glory:
Logos yes;
His right arm/hand, yes;
Jesus Christ, yes;

... Son of God always?
Where does the scripture say this?

He was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
He was ordained Son of God after His resurrection.
(Some people recognized He was "The Son of God, Messiah" before His resurrection,
but He was not (en)titled until after being recieved into glory.)

 2010/9/29 22:51


Hi Phillip,

The dogmatic theory of trinity does not fly, and the proof of Richard Phillips is shortsighted to say the least.

Every attribute of the Son is stated in the Bible as of the father as well.

Scripture however states that the attributes of the Holy Spirit (of Christ Jesus who is Lord) are the same as Jesus and these are attributed of and from Jesus, not the Father.

There is one mediator, advocate, and intercessor between God and man, Jesus Christ('s body and soul in heaven, His very spirit in the earth, in heaven (and being of Him, in us as well) is He who fills all in all.

Goodnight ya'll,
and God bless,

 2010/9/29 23:07

Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


Your theology is inconsistent. You claim that Jesus:
1) “let go of being God to become a man”
…but also that:
2) “Just because he completely emptied himself, he did not become non-God”

In the same breath, you claim that Jesus wasn’t fully God and that He was still God. This is slippery at best…

You have to choose between the two: Either Jesus was fully God on earth even while separated from the Father, or He wasn’t. That passage in Philippians does not say that Jesus let go of being God; it says that although He was God, He also became man. The two go together. He was both God and humbled man at the same time.

The Bible (especially the New Testament) plainly reveals that:
1) God is one in being
2) Deity (God) dwells fully in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
3) There is a personal relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (thus, they are distinct from one another in person, not only when Jesus walked on earth but also in heavenly dwellings)

Stop trying to defend your theology and pray that God would open the eyes of your heart. This is serious. Denying the full deity of Jesus Christ who gave His life for us on the cross is a serious false teaching. That is where your theology leads, although you claim the contrary in the same breath.

 2010/9/29 23:47Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708


No man has seen the Father, no man has seen the Holy Spirit, but man has seen Jesus Christ and "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, for all the fullness of the God Head dwells in Jesus bodily.

We may not see the person of the Father except in Jesus, but we see what He has done. We don't see the Holy
Spirit but we see after He is doing His work, like the wind we don't see it but we see where and what it is doing.

If we don't separate the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit it gives way to mans false doctrine that Jesus was just a spirit that we were able to see. He was fully man and fully God at the same Time, As the Son, even before the Cross Jesus was claimed to be God's beloved Son in whom He was well pleased.

Man is in a deluded state if He cannot see the Trinity, and the Holy Spirit has not revealed Who He is or who Jesus Christ in us is or The crying out of the Son that only He can reveal the Father to us.

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

He in us reveals the Father to us.
Ga 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

The Holy Spirit reveals the Son in us where the Holy Spirit works, in our soul-mind, our mind will and emotions, even to the things we don't understand and the things that Jesus said He would tell us when the time was right, and that was at Pentecost, Christ in you, The Holy Spirit in us forever and teaching us this Christ in us.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 17:1-5 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 14,15,16,17 plainly speak of Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send to teach us all things about this Christ in us and us in Him. Are we taught in our spirit, no. We are taught in our soul-mind, in renewing it to the Mind of Christ which by the Christ birthed in us we NOW have.

In Christ: Phillip


 2010/9/30 3:10Profile


For Gehenna is
the denial of the dogma of trinity

wow...could you point me to a scripture that verifies this? I couldn't find one BUT I could find a verse in Revelations and Galations that condemns a man for adding to God's word and changing His gospel.

I'll ask this again, go to the book of Acts and show me where Trinitarian preaching was preached as a necessary doctrine to believe to be saved. If it's not there, which it isnt, and you are requiring it for one to be "really" saved, then are you not guilty of the galation error by adding and changing the gospel which must be believed? Even if the Trinity is sound biblical doctrine would you not be anamatha for requiring something for salvation that God doesn't?

 2010/9/30 11:10

 Re: Sincere Apology


i am sorry for not being clear enough when responding, in a way probably never intended, Ryan pointed this out to me. Thank you.

Praying myself to sleep last night, at the last moments of aware rational consciousness, these words rang out:
"This is my beloved Son, in whom i am well pleased."

i woke early God calling me to pray for the Dallas event, but after being told this, i was told to look on SI at the Rabbi thread . . .
(and i didn't even recognize there was one having devoted what extra time is available to this thread.)

. . . and that i needed to be clearer in what was written. (My constant editing of posts is clear enough evidence of this.)

I am very sorry that over the past months i have not stated everything in complete clarity.


We are begotten of the Holy Spirit after repentance and conversion, following into this begetting baptism into Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ had the Holy Spirit within Him from conception.

He is Immanuel, God with us in the flesh, who emptied himself of His own Godhood so that we men could be reconciled to God.

God giving the sign of the (everywhere present)Spirit (of God) descending in the form of a dove was an indication to men that in following in Jesus footsteps, we would be baptised by Him with His --( Jesus = God )-- Holy Spirit.


There are still a few inconguencies in what you are saying, yet you have given me more scripture (and commentaries) to mull over and meditate on regarding the issue of this thread. Thanks.

Dr. Brown is a favorite preacher here though Mr. White has been heard to say things that do not agree with the totality of scripture --(Not that i haven't)--, and the debate will soon be heard out, seeing that shortly, a little time will be available for this.

Burn 4Christ and
(who got us going on this again again)

The concern is known from all the words written and i really do not know what to say but thank you.

sscott and i are probably moreso in the same boat than most, and after going to the Library, i might just understand whether or not this is so better.


In complete ideology based on current understanding of scripture, rather than stressing that the Holy Spirit is none other than Jesus
(' spirit, who is the only middle-person, one to appeal to, and intercessor
--( the only go-between and attourney for us)--
between God and man) ),
i know that i know that the Father has taken up abode with me in this Holy One, Jesus Christ in me.

God is hardly distant from me.
His voice --(the voice of Jesus is heard and communicated with through living, in whatever is done or not done.)

Scripture nowhere says that the Holy Spirit is a person seperate and distinct from Jesus Christ.

Rather, the Bible says this Spirit is:
~the Lord (Jesus being the one and only Lord)
~the (spirit) of the Holy One (Jesus being this very person prophetic fulfillment)
~the Spirit of Christ (Jesus being the Messiah (aka: Christ))
...and attributes are identical to Jesus and not a different person.

We also find many references, that in comparison, state that the Holy Spirit did something, and then in another place, Jesus is attributed to doing the same thing.

The apostles never taught that a trinity existed, so what gives us the right to?

Why now,
with these things laid out in this thread,
--in merely a scratch the surface manner--
is it so wrong for me to believe what the Bible says over what traditionalism of the apostate heirarchies have claimed for over 16 hundred years.

God Bless you all.

Lord willing, i'll be back,
but how soon is not known.

In the meantime,
alot of studying
and listening
will be done.

Again, i am sorry if i have not been clear enough.

Nobody will convince this one here of anything apart from scriptural proof...
(...and i am learning all the time.)




That paraphrase of Florensky is kix!
i'm still laughing.

 2010/9/30 11:34

Joined: 2010/6/8
Posts: 191

 Re: Sincere Apology

THis is neither an argument or even up for debate, this is especially a revelation that a human being must get from God alone.

Jesus will reveal the father and the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost will reveal the same, for they are one, not in tri-unity, but in manifestation and power.

There is but One God who revealed Himself in three different dispensations to plain His presence and work among humanity.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost makes God appear to be shizophrenic or somehow have multiple personalities.

Please read the Nicean Council 325ad, read a little everyday, this is where this Tri-unity was embraced.

Deut 6:4
One God, who reveals Himself in spirit (John 4:23) and in humanity (9:22)

 2010/9/30 18:38Profile


The living God is a Trinity and no amount of scripture twisting is going to change that.

 2010/9/30 18:42

Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272


Hi Gregg, welcome back
"if you have time, define the constitution of man, based on both the Old and New testament in congruency, if possible.
From what has been learned, the heart is the inner man. God's Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Lord is the Spirit who speaks to where our affections lie (aka:heart) (volition/perception): attitudes, intellect, feelings, memory, etc."

I really don't have the ability to do what you ask, perhaps someone else could.
I think this could be part of your difficulty in not believing that the Holy Spirit and Christ are different persons of the Godhead. You believe them to be the same as you believe that the inner man and the heart are the same. I believe that my inner man or my soul is where the Holy Spirit abides. There He speaks to me of the love of God, and bears witness that I am a child of God through that one baptism. Once my soul was sold unto sin and I was an enemy of God. But Jesus paid the price to buy back my rebellious soul, and now I belong to Him. The Holy Spirit constantly tells me so. He gives me power to live. He is a full and flowing river of life in my soul. So for me, the inner man is, as you say, part of man's constitution.

The heart however is not strictly part of our constitution in the way that our soul, our spirit or our body are. The heart is the moral centre of our lives. To use a comparison - we would say that a book consists of a spine, cover and printed pages; It also has a title and an author, and usually a plot or theme. All are aspects of the book, but not in the same way. So the heart of man is his centre. It is where his treasure is. It is not physical like the body or spiritual like the soul, it is moral. And this is where Jesus dwells. When He saved me, He gave me a new moral centre as the old was corrupt, deceitful and desperately wicked (I tell you the truth). He dwells in my heart by faith. The righteousness of God is my centre and Christ is all my treasure. Day by day He makes me to grow in love. And this, all by the power of the Holy Spirit which works in the inner man.

I am not completely satisfied with what I have written that it is thoroughly scriptural. Perhaps some would say otherwise.

That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen Eph 3:16-21 (KJV)



 2010/9/30 19:52Profile

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