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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Michael Brown and James White defend the doctrine of the Trinity

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 Re:

Travis sed:

Quote:
God the Son bore the Wrath of God the Father on the Cross and died,the Son was raised from the dead by the Spirit and "was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 1:4

The Spirit of Holiness has to be the Spirit of Christ Jesus.

Jesus said that HE lay down His life and HE picks it back up again.

I keep on going through reference after reference and nothing contradicts what has been revealed to me. Not that i doubted for one moment; but that i was looking if there were any grounds for others in saying the Holy Spirit is something other than Christ the Lord.


And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
~ Rev. 5.6


[SIDENOTE: THE SEVEN SPIRITS ARE ONE, AND THESE 7 ASPECTS ARE FOUND IN THE ADMONISHMENTS TO THE 7 CHURCHES MENTIONED IN REV. 1.20 - 3.20]



Onvorten!



Little children,
it is the last time:
and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
~ 1Jn. 2.18-28

(Here John is saying that the Spirit's prompting and annointing is none other than Christ. We are to abide (remain fixed) in Him.)

How much clearer could this be folks?

Every reference so far has only confirmed convictions regarding this. All the scriptures looked at say this in one way or another.

Now, show me in the Bible where it says that this Spirit of the Holy One is:

1. Another person, rather than the spirit of the Lord, Christ Jesus
2. Seperate from Christ Jesus the Lord
3 Distinct(ly different) from Christ?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ the Lord.

Who, using scripture, can show otherwise?????
(Please leave all unscripturally founded opinions on the floormat before we enter into further discussions on this matter.)

In the meantime,
This is going to be worked out and written out in detail with many scriptural proofs and it will be posted here on SI.

Either speak now or hold your peace.

El Elyon
and
Yahweh Yahshuvah
bless you all,

gregg


edited: towards clarity


 2010/9/29 17:02
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Christinyou says
"We have no deity, but we have all the attributes of the Son that gives us full access to the Father, by the nature of the Son in us, through the Holy Spirit. These three are One. This is the full Grace of God the Father, even before the foundation of the world."

I believe you are right; the revelation of the Three in One comes by the Spirit to those who are themselves partakers of the same grace.

Could you please explain what you mean by "birthing" and "rebirthing"; They are not as far as I know bible terms, yet you use them quite a lot:
Jesus Christ birthed in them by the Full Grace of the Incorruptable Seed of the Father
By this birthing we are now son's of God.
Making son's of the Father by the Only Begotten Son birthed in them
By the Grace of God the Father rebirthing His Son in believer
Love in Christ

David


_________________
david

 2010/9/29 17:28Profile









 Re:

Phillip says:

(re:Heb. 1: . . . )
The very first verse speaks to the Old That is done away, that which is the Law and the Prophets. Then gives the reason for the putting away the Law and the Prophets, to bring into view the Son of God, who is now the only One we have to do with. He now speaks through the Son, not the Law or Prophets. "For as HE Is in this world so are we".
------------------------------------------------------------
Brother:
Neither here nor anywhere else does it say that the Law and the Prophets have been done away with. People can misinterpret scripture to say this, but then they can't use their whole Bible.

When Paul wrote "ALL SCIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof and correction that the man of God may be completely furnished unto every GOOD WORK" the New Testament had not even been completely written yet. It certainly was not yet compiled into one book. Paul was talking about the Old Testament...
...and you say it's done away????

What about Jesus words?

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your GOOD WORKS, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
~ Mt. 5.16-19

Or what of Ephesians 2.8-10?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


'GOOD WORKS'
IS ALWAYS
in reference to doing
--of what both the Law and the Prophets declare--
obeying God through Christ Jesus.
============================================================


"How can anyone not see what Paul is speaking of in all His epistles? It is not revealed by man or study of the scriptures for it is said there is no life in them. This can only be revealed by the Holy Spirit whom this Christ in you is . . .
. . . Revealed in him. Not by man or word or deed, but by the Spirit of Christ in Him through the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
------------------------------------------------------------

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is something other than Christ in us?

There is one mediator, intercessor, and advocate between God and man, Jesus Christ.
There are not two.

We are to abide in Christ Jesus, and where are we told to abide in the Holy Spirit?


You make me curious sometimes,
other times straighten me out,
and now i'm considering the ramifications of
the Holy Spirit
being
none other than
Christ Jesus our Lord,

gregg


edited: deleted a repeat of sign-off name

 2010/9/29 17:37
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Phanetheus says
[SIDENOTE: THE SEVEN SPIRITS ARE ONE, AND THESE 7 ASPECTS ARE FOUND IN THE ADMONISHMENTS TO THE 7 CHURCHES MENTIONED IN REV. 1.20 - 3.20
But in Rev 5, the Lamb has the seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth, not to the 7 churches.
The 7 eyes as the seven spirits of God refer to Zecheriah chap 3 where Christ the BRANCH is promised. And to Zech chap 4 where the coming Christ is seen as Zerubbabel.
"For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth." Zech 4:10 (KJV)

And to John's first letter
You say "Here John is saying that the Spirit's prompting and annointing is none other than Christ. We are to abide (remain fixed) in Him."
John writes "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father"
ie if the Holy Spirit abide in you, you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
The annointing is the Holy Spirit which they had received at their new birth, and He abideth in them, just as Jesus promised them:
"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" John 14:17
Don't fight against the Word of God, but receive it as a child and feed .
Paul prays for the Epesians: "That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith" Eph 3:16-17
The proper place for the Holy Spirit is is our inner man. The proper place for Christ is in our hearts.
David


_________________
david

 2010/9/29 18:17Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Albert Barns;

According to the spirit of holiness. kata pneuma agiwsunhV. This expression has been variously understood. We may arrive at its meaning by the following considerations.

(1.) It is not the Third Person in the Trinity that is referred to here. The designation of that person is always in a different form. It is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost-- pneuma agion, or to pneuma to agion; never the Spirit of holiness.

(2.) It stands in contrast with the flesh, Ro 1:3, "According to the flesh, the seed of David: according to the spirit of holiness, the Son of God." As the former refers doubtless to his human nature, so this must refer to the nature designated by the title Son of God, that is, to his superior or Divine nature.

(3.) The expression is altogether peculiar to the Lord Jesus Christ. Nowhere in the Scriptures, or in any other writings, is there an affirmation like this. What would be meant by it if affirmed of a mere man?

(4.) It cannot mean that the Holy Spirit, the Third Person in the Trinity, showed that Jesus was the Son of God by raising him from the dead, because that act is nowhere attributed to him. It is uniformly ascribed either to God, as God, (Ac 2:24; 3:15; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30,33; 17:31; Ro 10:9; Eph 1:20,) or to the rather, (Ro 6:4,) or to Jesus himself, (Joh 10:18.) In no instance is this act ascribed to the Holy Ghost.

(5.) It indicates a state far more elevated than any human dignity, or honour. In regard to his earthly descent, he was of a royal race; in regard to the Spirit of holiness, much more than that, he was the Son of God.

(6.) The word Spirit is used often to designate God, the holy God, as distinguished from all the material forms of idol worship, Joh 4:24.

(7.) The word Spirit is applied to the Messiah in his more elevated or Divine nature. 1Co 15:45, "The last Adam was made a quickening Spirit." 2Co 3:17, "Now the Lord (Jesus) is that Spirit." Heb 9:14, Christ is said to have "offered himself through the eternal Spirit." 1Pe 3:18, he is said to have been "put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit." 1Ti 3:16, he is said to have been "justified in the Spirit." In most of these passages there is the same contrast noticed between his flesh, his human nature, and his other state, which occurs in Ro 1:3-4. In all these instances, the design is, doubtless, to speak of him as a man, and as something more than a man; he was one thing as a man; he was another thing in his other nature. In the one, he was of David; was put to death, etc. In the other, he was of God; he was manifested to be such; he was restored to the elevation which he had sustained before his incarnation and death, Joh 17:1-5; Php 2:2-11. The expression, according to the spirit of holiness, does not indeed of itself imply Divinity. It denotes that holy and more exalted nature which he possessed as distinguished from the human. What that is, is to be learned from other declarations. This expression implies simply that it was such as to make proper the appellation, the Son of God. Other places, as we have seen, show that that designation naturally implied Divinity. And that this was the true idea couched under the expression, according to the spirit of holiness, appears from those numerous texts of Scripture which explicitly assert his Divinity. End

To assert that the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ is saying that the Holy Spirit also hang on the Cross and the Father had forsaken The Holy Spirit and the Son. They are One in the total of the God Head, but separate in their manifestation of the Plan of God. Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Here The Holy Spirit and The Holy Thing, The Son of God are not One in this Plan.

Also the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus at His Baptism to give power for His testing for 40 days and also to give power to the 3 & 1/2 years of His ministry and strength to overcome, not my will but yours be done, death on the Cross.

If we don't have the Spirit of Christ we are none of His. If we don't have the Holy Spirit we will not know the Spirit of Christ in us.

Romans 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit (of Christ) is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him (Holy Spirit of God)that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Who is the righteous One? Who gives us Life and makes us righteousness?

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The quickening is where the Holy Spirit works in our mind, will and emotions to bring us to the Mind of Christ, This is why God the Father answered The Sons prayer and sent the Holy Spirit also at Pentecost, Christ in you the Hope of Glory and The Holy Spirit in us to teach all things that Jesus says and reveal The Son of God in us.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Making the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Christ takes away the birthing of the Christ Seed in the Believer and is one of the greatest mistakes in the Whole Church. The Holy Trinity is for the Perfect Plan of God, A new Person birthed in the believer, making us a new creation, the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ Himself in us, making us son's of God and the Holy Spirit revealing this truth in the believer.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/9/29 18:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I believe you are right; the revelation of the Three in One comes by the Spirit to those who are themselves partakers of the same grace.



Actually the revelation about God and His nature should come from what the Spirit has already revealed through the scriptures. It is not some mystical thing that must be revealed outside of what is written.

If you are saying that the nature of God is only understood by the Spirit because it's not plainly taught in scripture...then that's the same things the Mormans say. They say you will know that the book of Morman is true because the Spirit will confirm it.

 2010/9/29 18:54









 Re:

by davidc on 2010/9/29 14:17:21

Phanetheus says
[SIDENOTE: THE SEVEN SPIRITS ARE ONE, AND THESE 7 ASPECTS ARE FOUND IN THE ADMONISHMENTS TO THE 7 CHURCHES MENTIONED IN REV. 1.20 - 3.20
But in Rev 5, the Lamb has the seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth, not to the 7 churches.
The 7 eyes as the seven spirits of God refer to Zecheriah chap 3 where Christ the BRANCH is promised. And to Zech chap 4 where the coming Christ is seen as Zerubbabel.
"For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth." Zech 4:10 (KJV)

------------------------------------------------------------
p:
The seven eyes spoke to seven churches as in the end of each admonishment, it plainly states, "...Hear what the spirit is saying to the churches..."

The churches being on earth through the to and fro of the eyes, they are observed, exhorted, rebuked, and corrected.

__________________________________________________________
davidc:
And to John's first letter
You say "Here John is saying that the Spirit's prompting and annointing is none other than Christ. We are to abide (remain fixed) in Him."
John writes "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father"
ie if the Holy Spirit abide in you, you will abide in the Son and in the Father...
------------------------------------------------------------
????? "ie if the Holy Spirit abide in you, you will abide in the Son and in the Father."?????


This passage does not say "Holy Spirit" anywhere, but refers to the Son and the Father, so what else can we add to this?
__________________________________________________________

davidc:

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
The annointing is the Holy Spirit which they had received at their new birth, and He abideth in them, just as Jesus promised them:
"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" John 14:17
------------------------------------------------------------

Since Jesus is the one truth, you are in a roundabout way saying that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Christ Jesus.
__________________________________________________________

davidc:

Don't fight against the Word of God, but receive it as a child and feed .
Paul prays for the Epesians: "That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith" Eph 3:16-17
The proper place for the Holy Spirit is is our inner man. The proper place for Christ is in our hearts.
David
------------------------------------------------------------

i'm not fighting anything, and i crave the Word of God more than food and sleep.

i'm seeing something new develop here through concourse with you though brother.
Please, if you have time, define the constitution of man, based on both the Old and New testament in congruency, if possible.

From what has been learned, the heart is the inner man. God's Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Lord is the Spirit who speaks to where our affections lie (aka:heart) (volition/perception): attitudes, intellect, feelings, memory, etc.

God Bless you,
gregg

p.s. Have you listened to the sermon by Bill McLeod or checked the history of origins for the dogmatic THEORY of the Holy Spirit being something other than (=anti-) Christ?

 2010/9/29 19:29









 Re:

Phillip quoting Barnes:

" . . . (4.) It cannot mean that the Holy Spirit, the Third Person in the Trinity, showed that Jesus was the Son of God by raising him from the dead, because that act is nowhere attributed to him . . .

Wrong!

Jesus Attributed this work as He Himself doing it.


As far as the rest goes, it was not the spirit of Jesus Christ that was crucified but the body.

When Jesus came to earth to redeem all thing to himself, he emptied Himself from all that is God of Him . . .
. . .thus the need for the Holy Spirit, as a seperated aspect of Himself.


Agapeo,
gregg



 2010/9/29 19:40









 Re:

Quote:
When Jesus came to earth to redeem all thing to himself, he emptied Himself from all that is God of Him . . .
. . .thus the need for the Holy Spirit, as a seperated aspect of Himself.




Wrong, wrong, wrong. JESUS did NOT empty himself of who is is,
He always was, is and will be the eternal Som of God.
Becoming a son of man did nothing to change this.


 2010/9/29 21:00
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Hi Greg;

This most important answer to who raised Jesus from the dead is answered in all three of the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son and The Holy Spirit.

Rev Richard Phillips ascribes to this also.

"
No doubt, the majority of references point to God the Father. Where we read, “God raised Jesus,” we should certainly take this as a reference to God the Father. This emphasizes a number of things. First, it is the God to whom Jesus cried, and into whose hands Jesus committed his Spirit, who raised him from the dead. In Matthew 27:43, we read of the chief priests mocking Jesus: “He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, 'I am the Son of God.’” By the resurrection, Jesus’ claims regarding his relationship as Son to the Father were proved to be true, and God the Father was proved to be faithful to all who trust in him. Moreover, Peter could say, “The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree” (Acts 5:30), so that the resurrection was a proof that the Old Testament is fulfilled by the risen Christ.

The Bible also ascribes Christ’s resurrection to Jesus’ own power as Second Person of the Godhead. This is in keeping with the power he claimed to Martha at the tomb of Lazarus: “I am the resurrection and the life” (Jn. 11:25). Jesus said in John 10:17-18, “I lay down my life that I may take it up again… I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Hebrews 7:16 says that Jesus lives for ever because he possesses “the power of an indestructible life.” The point is that being the ever-living divine Son, the Alpha and Omega, death could not hold Jesus, and therefore death cannot hold those who belong to Jesus in faith.

Lastly, there are references to the Holy Spirit raising Jesus from the dead. Romans 1:4 says that Jesus “was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness which describes all Three in and through and by his resurrection from the dead” (Rom. 1:4). More blatantly, Romans 8:11 says, “If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.” The point is made evident right there, that the Spirit’s work in our lives is analogous to his work in raising Jesus from the dead. To be born again by the Spirit, is to experience a spiritual resurrection.

This ends up providing a useful lesson in Trinitarian theology, namely, that in the work of any member of the Trinity, the other two members are always intimately involved. Everything the Trinity does is done by all of the Trinity. Surely, in the case of the resurrection of Christ, the great preponderance of references speaks of God the Father as the leading actor. But the Son and the Spirit were also responsible in the resurrection, just as all three divine Persons are actively involved in our spiritual rebirth and on-going sanctification, which is our first resurrection, just as they will together conspire to ensure our second and final resurrection on the great day to come. To all Three be glory. End.

The Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ the obedient Son is not the Father, in all we see in scripture, they are separated in Their work Planned by the Father even before the foundation of the world, but also in scripture we see all of them as One God. Their manifestation as in our spiritual rebirth and quickening of our mortal flesh to contain this wonderful mystery Paul speaks about in all His epistles, Christ in you the Hope of Glory, whom Himself says He and the Father make their abode with us and Jesus Sending the Holy Spirit, the Another Comforter, by His Prayer to the Father. All three are intimately involved in all that we are in Christ, THEY are our all in all and the Three in One God and Father of us all.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/9/29 21:38Profile





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