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MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 My Pastor

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters.

He restores my soul.

He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever.


_________________
Travis

 2010/9/18 2:22Profile
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

A little disappointed in your response Jimmy. I have my way of thinking about this, but I am certainly not beyond being convinced otherwise. You've dismissed what I've said completely. If it was so obvious from scripture that you were right, and the thousands of servants of God who have served as lead pastors over the years were so in error, I think you could do more than say "What if I called someone else our High Priest?" You would be in serious error if you said that. No one in real ministry for the Lord would say that. You know that is not what I'm saying and it's completely dishonest to imply that it is. One person having the final say in the decisions of a body of believers in no way means they have usurped the authority of Christ. To say that is highly judgmental and Pharisaical. The idea of one person being God's instrument for a group of people is all over the Bible.

"What about James' role? What verses? And where is he ever called the pastor of Jerusalem?" Now, where is it ever explicitly stated that it is an error for one man to be the spiritual leader of a church. But in regards to what verses, consider Acts 12:17, Acts 15:13, Acts 21:18 and Galatians 2:12.

This is really kind of unnecessary. If you would like to have a discourse on why you believe what you believe then I would be honored to see if I could learn something. What I won't do is have you dismiss what I'm saying by putting words in my mouth that you know I have not implied. You act as if what I'm saying is so foreign that you can't even comprehend it. I'm not condoning homosexual leadership in the church, I'm condoning an office which is specifically mentioned in the Bible. You are forming an opinion, educated though it may be, by taking a verse from here and there to support it. I'm looking at one verse, Ephesians 4:11, and then supporting it with examples of James and others throughout the Bible.

Matt


_________________
Matt Smith

 2010/9/18 13:20Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Hoohoou

I think you misunderstood my post. My questions were not asked with the tone I think you read them with. I asked the questions I did to really see what you think in regard to James. Which verses specifically do you think support such a view?

And regarding my question about calling men other than Christ our High Priest, I also asked that paritially in a rhetorical manner. But I would be interested to see if you think such is actually ok theologically.

And I say none of these things to slight our brethern who have served and do serve as senior pastors. We are indebted to their service to the body of Christ.

Many blessings.


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Jimmy H

 2010/9/18 15:13Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:


Quote:
Would somebody please show me where this "lead pastor" kind of thing is justified in the first place? From Scripture, I mean?



Here are a few:

Titus 1:5-9: KJV
5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

1Timothy 3:1-7:
1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Just because some have abused their role as an overseer or bishop does not mean one should discard the office. This is one that was set up through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to build up the church. Notice the instructions given in Titus 1:9-16:

9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

I deeply appreciate those men who are serving our church in this role. They take their work seriously and work for the edifying of the brotherhood.

Oh, and they are paid only with love offerings. Otherwise they are gainfully employed. Actually, our overseer is a physician and our lead pastor a cabinet builder.

God bless these brothers!

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2010/9/18 15:19Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Every elder in our church is unpaid and works a different job to support themselves and their families. When a need is needed, it is given by the body. No church car, no paid salaries, no retirement funds (which in itself is kind of silly for a pastor), etc...

What is wrong with scenarios like this?


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Christiaan

 2010/9/18 15:29Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
What is wrong with scenarios like this?



Nothing.

This is the way we do it and it works - except in our church we call the elders deacon[s] or they are a member of the church council who work with the pastoral team.

This type of leadership is called 'servant leadership'. It works because they know they have to give an answer to Someone greater and because it is Biblical.


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Sandra Miller

 2010/9/18 15:48Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Hi Sister Ginny.

About the passage you quoted "Titus 1:5-9: KJV
5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee..."

Note that it says "elders" not "an elder." The early church was led-- not ruled or governed: if you check the original Greek you will discover that those verses that use the word "rule" are from the Greek root meaning "to lead or guide"-- and so, the early church was led, guided, by a few elders who functioned in different capacities, and who were themselves not a separate clergy, but just ones who were members of the body of Christ themselves with God-given strengths they supplied to all.

These elders were overseers, the word we know as "bishops." They "saw over," watched over, the flock.
And this was not an office, but a capacity, a character. There's no indication in Scripture of the early churches having one man called a "lead pastor" who was in charge of the church. This kind of structure came in probably very quickly, though: probably in the second century. But it is not the Biblical pattern.

...I understand your protectiveness toward godly pastors who are doing their best in the present system. These men, many of them, perhaps most of them, are honest God-loving men. I honour and respect them, as I said earlier. And I think many of them, as they more and more see what God is seeking to bring forth in this hour, they too will hear the Great Shepherd's Voice, and follow Him into what He has in mind and is about to manifest. Certainly it will mean a cross for them. It does for all of us in one way or another.



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Allan Halton

 2010/9/18 16:03Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

But in regards to what verses, consider Acts 12:17, Acts 15:13, Acts 21:18 and Galatians 2:12.



Now that I have more time, I will address these verses regarding James one by one.


Acts 12:17 But motioning to them with his hand to be silent, he described to them how the Lord had led him out of the prison. And he said, "Report these things to James and the brethren." Then he left and went to another place.

James is nowhere called an elder here. We know James was one of the apostles. And since at this time in Church history the apostles had started to expand their ministry beyond their initial outpost in Jerusalem, it is possible James was the only apostle still in Jerusalem at the time. But whatever the case, such is all speculation.


Acts 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. -

James was one of several apostles that spoke at the conference in Jerusalem. There is nothing here that describes him acting in any senior pastoral role. No doubt, James argument carried the day at the conference. But his argument carrying the day wasn't due to a special position, but because of the persuasiveness of his words. Thus, when the conference was concluded, a joint letter was written by all the apostles, elders, and the rest of the church. There is no evidence of anyone having priority in this.


Acts 21:18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.

If anything, this strengthens the notion that James was anything but a senior elder. For James is spoken as standing apart from the elders of Jerusalem, and since he was an apostle residing in Jerusalem, this should not surprise us.


Galatians 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

James sent some people. That's all this verse says. Paul sometimes sent Timothy to places, and sometimes various churches would send other ministers to other places. No hierarchy needs to be imagined here. My younger brother has sent me on errands for him in the past. Sometimes at work, I'll send one of my coworkers to carry out a task in my place. Yet I have no seniority over them whatsoever.



I think what we often have with verses such as these, is the reading of an idea into a text that the text itself does not say. Exegetically, I simply see no justification in using these verses to support the idea of there being such a thing as a "senior pastor" in the early Church. Especially considering everywhere else, we see something else altogether. Indeed, it is my conviction that the explicit teaching of Scripture is that Jesus Christ alone is the Chief Shepherd of the Church. He is Lord of both heaven and earth. He alone is the head of the body, the Church of Jesus Christ.

I never see such an idea ever applied to anybody else in the Church in all of the Scripture. In my opinion, the evidence is strongly wanting for the idea of a senior pastor existing in the Scripture, with the exception of course, of Jesus Christ.


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Jimmy H

 2010/9/18 18:36Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, as far as i know , all things created by God have one head. anything else is monstrous.even marriage and family...government... high priest...etc.jimp

 2010/9/18 19:06Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re: Report Reveals Salaries of Megachurch Pastors

The Scripture that comes to my mind immediately is Acts 20:34-35: "You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. 35In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.' "

It seems pretty evident that Paul is giving instructions there that are to be heeded by all elders/pastors/bishops of all churches at all times, not just the Ephesians at that time. This is practical and doctrinal instruction. I know that many resort to verses like 1Cor.9:14 and 1Tim.5:17 and take them out of context to justify their greed.
It seems that many who are salaried pastors have a huge issue with much pride, greed and control over the people in their churches. They want to be the boss, they want the spot light on them, they want to rule over "their flocks". They build their own kingdoms where they are king, not Christ. They are like CEOs of the world. The whole church system is run like that kind of business. That is grieving and sickening to me and I am sorry if you feel that I am being too judgmental on the Church. We have gone far astray from God's heart and it is time for us to wake up and cry out to God in true repentance, with fasting, weeping and mourning. We have bought into the lies of the devil. He is playing us like he wants. As long as we continue doing God's work in the ways of the world we will have little to no power, or influence or impact on the world for Christ.

The Following is part of an article titled "Should Pastors Be Salaried". You can read the rest of it here:
http://www.truthguard.com/Articles/should-pastors-be-salaried-a53.html

"It is absolutely not the church's obligation to financially support a pastor or elder. This is a very popular tradition and misconception based on misinterpretations and misapplications of various Scriptures and often leads to gross financial abuse.

We do not see salaried pastors anywhere in the Bible. The Bible teaches against “hirelings”. It is crystal clear from the overall teachings of the Bible that a pastor should work with his hands, taking care of himself and his family, having something to share with others. He should not be a burden on the church.

Nevertheless, we hear a lot of empty excuses today from hirelings as to why they claim to have no time to work a real job. Yet the Apostle Paul often made tents for a living and was way busier with spiritual duties than these guys today. In additional to everything Paul was doing, he also had the time to write two thirds of the New Testament as he was inspired by God to do.

When a man looks at a church as a job or career, or a business that needs to be managed, it then appears to him that he will be very busy with that endeavor. Therefore he thinks he will not have enough time to also work a real job. The truth is the church is not a financial career or a business, nor is it something to be commercially administrated, and so the church is not a complex maze of confusion that needs to be controlled. Hence there is plenty of time for a pastor to work a job and take care of his family while helping with the needs of the church...."


_________________
Oracio

 2010/9/19 1:56Profile





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