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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Brothertom, if you don't mind me asking, are you premillenial regarding Rev.20? In other words, do you take the millenium to be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth before the eternal state? I ask out of curiousity since I respect your opinions as a seasoned brother. If you are not premillenial, post trib or pre-wrath would probably not be a typical name you want to use, since those are thought of as premil.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/8/18 17:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I must ask where you said this to snufalapagus who announced the preterist view as a fact in his FIRST SENTENCE: “The Rapture will not occur at all in our lifetime or any time in the future for it is a past event.” (sorry snuffies!!)



No apologies necessary :-)

I've been called a Preterist but I am not one. I read the bible like all of you do and I see things differently than what most see. I too rely heavily on what the Holy Spirit speaketh through the scriptures. Without His help, I would not read the bible at all, for the carnal mind is at enmity with God.

It is a fact though. In a thousand years from now, Christians in that time period will say the exact same things this generation is saying, "The Lord is coming".

And He is coming and is always coming in power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

The "Everlasting Gospel".

If there is to be an end of the Earth and all that there is, to what purpose would the Everlasting Gospel be to them that are perfect? The Good News is that Jesus died in the place of a sinner. If there are no sinners in heaven, how is the Everlasting Gospel going to affect them seeing they are perfect?

The Everlasting Gospel must be for sinners that exist on the Earth.

 2010/8/18 22:10
knitefall
Member



Joined: 2010/3/2
Posts: 252


 pan trib

Hey! Where do I sign up to be a pantribber? It'll all pan out! HA! love it!

Thank God we have a Covenant keeping God. I sure cannot keep anything.


I've heard people repeat over and over, "I love God with all my heart." To which I'll ask, You mean the one where wickedness dwells and all manner of evil? Now, don't ask a new born again person that... In the human realm, our minds need renewed (the way we think). God has to give a new heart to us. And that's by Faith... anyhow. So, don't see God as an angry judge that you have to please! Change how you see God's Love towards you ='s No Condemnation. The soulish you says, "I need to please God by doing and showing Him I love Him." That is very false doctrine and will cause you much grief. Because the more you DO, the more you fail. The more you fail, the more you try to do. It's an endless cycle of law instead of Grace and New Covenant.

Now, how are you going to loose your soul while a God like we serve is in control?

Jesus said, "Here come all these people. Who is there to teach them the Way?" Many are Saved but still don't know the 'Living by the Spirit' kind of - Way.

 2010/8/18 22:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:
There will be, and currently is, a Great falling away in our midst. To fall away, you have to first be attached to the substance you fall from. Food for thought..



Actually that is a false statement. I've heard that all my life and that is simply not true.

Yes, there is a departure from traditional Christianity which I think is a great thing. And people are falling away from denominational-ism, again, I think is a good thing.

It is far better that we remain in sin than to "try" to live this Christian walk through main stream Christianity. Christ died for sinners. Don't misconstrue what I wrote. People who have been trying to live this Christian life under the direction of these denominations have fallen away. People who leave these outfits, are searching for the truth, they are not falling away.

Just because people have stopped going to church is no indication that they have stopped wanting God. Churchanity is not real. It's a joke! People dress up only to dress down when they get home. There is more gossip over one sinner that repents and their life story is being whispered, God forbid if his past was homosexual. Hypocrisy rules within. People say they love, but when one leaves Church, no one runs after him, no inquiries, there is no love.

If anyone is falling away it's those that are GOING to church.

 2010/8/18 22:29
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

What is wrong with a person admitting that he doesn't know with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY how the end with come about, that we should remain prepared for any scenario by seeking God and that we shouldn't worry about the specifics will play out?



I have no problem with a person admitting that is where they are. There is no foul in humble admitting the subject makes little sense, and you really don't have a conviction one way or the other. Honestly, that's where I've been most of my Christian life. And I have no problem with a person being in such a place if that's where they are in their walk with the Lord.

What I do have a problem with, which I either miscommunicated or you misunderstood, is the rather negligent, lackadaisical, and apathetic attitude that we can often have towards eschatology. Indeed, because of the diversity of opinions on the subject, people just look at it as a skeptical area of Bible study that has no relevance for modern day living. When in fact, eschatology is woven throughout the entirety of Scripture, and has a great deal to do with everyday life. No, not every minute detail is pressing and has practical application. But I believe the general eschatological framework one adopts (or likewise, doesn't adopt), will impact how one lives in the present.

For example, if you believe Jesus is going to come tomorrow or shortly thereafter, you will live your life accordingly. Likewise, if you believe Jesus could come tomorrow, but might not, you will live your life accordingly. Thus, the one friend of yours, what he believed (and didn't believe) about the future has made a radical impact on his life.

"Take no thought for tomorrow," isn't an injunction against eschatological living. Rather, it's a statement against a worldly lifestyle that is grounded in worry and securing one's lot in this life. For most certainly Jesus intended the church to be an eschatological community that lived with an awareness that the time we are living in is short, and that we should live accordingly. The apostles followed in the same footsteps. The church ought to always be thinking about the fact that we live on the edge of history, awaiting the return of Christ, and indeed, longing for and hastening His return.

But what I believe to be the most important thing about studying Bible prophecy is the understanding that we gain of God's ultimate purposes in His outworking of the plan of redemption in history. For whatever we believe to be God's end for history will inform us of what we are to be doing for Him now.

For example, I believe Ephesians 4:11ff teaches that God's intent for the church is to bring it to a corporate maturity and unity before the return of Christ, and that He will use the "five-fold" ministries of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in order to accomplish this end. This is an eschatological perspective. As a result of embracing such a perspective, if I am one of those five-fold ministers, understanding what God wishes to do in the future instructs me in what I ought to do and labor towards as a minister within the church in the present. Not only that, but it also informs me of what I need to avoid.

Thus, what we believe about the future will impact how we live in the present. Which is why I believe a negligent attitude towards the topic of eschatology is borderline heresy. Again, for those who on purpose ignore the greater part of Scripture that deals with such topics, simply because they don't wish to study that area for whatever myriad of reasons, such is grave error. It's one thing to read and not understand. It's another altogether to create a "canon within a canon," which is the end result of being negligent towards the study of eschatology.

Again, the minute details aren't very important on a practical level. Indeed, they won't be very practical except for the people who see those specific events come to pass. That is why we don't need to be "Bible prophecy experts," who have all sorts of nice maps and charts, being so skilled that we can identify with precision the names of the two witnesses from Revelation. Such is worth looking into if one has the luxury of such study. But practically speaking, it borderlines a wrangling over words.

But trying to discern the general eschatological framework upon which all of history hangs upon is of great importance and significance. It touches on all areas of theology, and where we stand in relationship to the kingdom of God, and how we live our lives out of our understanding of that kingdom. Thus, we should attempt as best we can to understand this general framework, as it will impact our sense of destiny and purpose.

I hope this post comes across more clear and less inflammatory than my previous post was understood.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2010/8/18 22:30Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, it was len ravenhill who really upset my pre trib stance on the rapture and got me thinking with this story... their was a famous missionary to china who started many churches there and trained many converts to pastor those churches. he left when mao started the violant chinese rebellion...many years later he was in taiwan and met up with a group of those pastors who called him a false prophet and when he asked why they said that a day was coming when the churches would be burned and families of those churches murdered ...daughters raped in the streets but we would not see it because we would be raptured...bilions have died and yet noone raptured ...why argue over seven years of tribulation when we face eternal torment if we die without Christ.jimp

 2010/8/18 22:58Profile









 Re:

What if the great falling away is a direct result of those proclaiming a pre-trib stance being wrong, and untold numbers cosider proponents --(who were sure they were right)-- liars and cannot be trusted regarding anything else if they can't even get the Bible right?

What if the falling away happens after signs obviously point to us living in the time of tribulation, and those unprepared to face it turn their backs on the Faith?

Who will be held more accountable? Those who fall away or those stumbling-blocks that offend God in offending other men?

He who is faithful in little is faithful in much.

Is it looking to Jesus when looking for a way out?


It's awful quaint and smug to justify our failure in making disciples, excusing ourselves of those who part company in saying , "oh, they never believed anyway..." or "they were never a part of us..." or "they never were saved."

By our words we are justified and condemned, and we shall account for every idle word
... so what about a false word???

("...All liars ...shall have their part in the lake of fire.")

 2010/8/19 0:22









 Re:

speculative chatter....

Is this an idle word or is it building up people towards relying on God towards unshakeable faithfulness (in thought and word and deed)?

 2010/8/19 0:35
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:

It is a fact though. In a thousand years from now, Christians in that time period will say the exact same things this generation is saying, "The Lord is coming".
And He is coming and is always coming in power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.
Quote:


I'm confused. Are you saying that Christ will not come back to this earth in bodily form? If so, what do you make of Acts 1:11 where we are told that Christ is coming back the same way he ascended into heaven?

Quote:

If there is to be an end of the Earth and all that there is, to what purpose would the Everlasting Gospel be to them that are perfect? The Good News is that Jesus died in the place of a sinner. If there are no sinners in heaven, how is the Everlasting Gospel going to affect them seeing they are perfect?

The Everlasting Gospel must be for sinners that exist on the Earth
Quote:


Are you saying that there will always be sinners on this earth throughout eternity and there will never be an end to this earth as we know it? That would be a rejection of the biblical teaching of the final judgment of mankind by God Almighty. And it would seem to be a rejection of biblical orthodox Christianity. The same goes for a rejection of the bodily second coming of Christ and the bodily resurrection of true believers. The Word makes it very clear that there is coming a final ultimate day of reckoning when the Lord will physically raise the dead, seperate the sheep from the goats at the end of this age, and will cast the goats into everlasting punishment in hell. 2Pet.3:10 tells us that this earth will be destroyed by fire.


_________________
Oracio

 2010/8/19 1:30Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4526


 Re:

Hi KingJimmy...

I think that we agree much much more than we disagree -- on this subject and many others. I think that we both lament over the "ease in Zion" and flat-out laziness in the hearts, minds and actions of many believers.

You wrote: ---> "For example, if you believe Jesus is going to come tomorrow or shortly thereafter, you will live your life accordingly. Likewise, if you believe Jesus could come tomorrow, but might not, you will live your life accordingly. Thus, the one friend of yours, what he believed (and didn't believe) about the future has made a radical impact on his life." <---

I think that there is something extremely wrong when people base their living, actions and attitudes as "believers" upon the changing winds or views on the timing of how the end might come about.

The key, in my mind, is PREPARATION. We should be prepared for ANYTHING -- whether the Lord gathers His Bride BEFORE the period of His wrath OR whether believers will be confined to this world during the period of God's wrath (and any other possible scenario). I also believe that the ONLY true preparation is simple: We must spend intimate time with our Lord in prayer and study of His Word.

You wrote: ---> "For most certainly Jesus intended the church to be an eschatological community that lived with an awareness that the time we are living in is short, and that we should live accordingly. The apostles followed in the same footsteps. The church ought to always be thinking about the fact that we live on the edge of history, awaiting the return of Christ, and indeed, longing for and hastening His return." <---

Yes, I agree that we as believers should always be waiting and watching for our Lord's return. Yet there is a difference between waiting and watching for the Lord's return...and KNOWING with undeniable certainty just when and how it will come about. I believe that there are things within God's own time plan that just aren't necessary for us to discern.

This is why I pointed out the disciples asking Jesus about the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel in Acts 1:6-7. This was certainly within a matter of eschatology (or, in the least, within the framework of future events). Jesus politely redirected them from concentrating on such a thing back to what was most important -- waiting on God and fulfilling His work on Earth. Yes, we should ALWAYS live with the knowledge that we live on the edge of history. However, we should also live and act with the realization that every human being sits on the edge of eternity -- because each person is a breath or heartbeat away from death!

This past year, I heard some of the 911 recordings from the World Trade Center on September 11th. One of those recordings is strongly etched in my mind. Kevin Cosgrove was trapped on the 105th floor of Tower 2. You can listen to his recording on YouTube or by downloading from various September 11th history websites. He was on his cell phone with a 911 dispatcher in horrific and agonizing conditions. In fact, he was on the phone with the dispatcher when the building collapsed. It is difficult and haunting thing to hear. Yet, when I first heard it, I was quickly reminded that life can be extinguished in a mere moment. Kevin Cosgrove didn't have to wait for the end of time (whenever that might be) to arrive to the end of his life. His life, like all of ours, is "but a vapor."

You wrote: ---> "For example, I believe Ephesians 4:11ff teaches that God's intent for the church is to bring it to a corporate maturity and unity before the return of Christ, and that He will use the "five-fold" ministries of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in order to accomplish this end. This is an eschatological perspective. As a result of embracing such a perspective, if I am one of those five-fold ministers, understanding what God wishes to do in the future instructs me in what I ought to do and labor towards as a minister within the church in the present. Not only that, but it also informs me of what I need to avoid." <---

I certainly believe that God calls some into accomplishing the work of the "five fold" ministry from Ephesians 4:11. But what is the purpose of this? It is not necessarily to cause all of their hearers to somehow accept every last specific view of one (or more) of those "five folders" with whom they fellowship.

Rather, these ministries are "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and CARRIED ABOUT WITH EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the TRUTH in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:" (Ephesians 4:12-15). I don't think that the "unity" spoken of here is absolute conformity to every dot and tittle of which a particular minister stands. Nor do I think that this unity is based upon KNOWING with absolute certainty each and every last specificity in regard to the coming of the Lord.

You wrote: ---> "Thus, what we believe about the future will impact how we live in the present. Which is why I believe a negligent attitude towards the topic of eschatology is borderline heresy. Again, for those who on purpose ignore the greater part of Scripture that deals with such topics, simply because they don't wish to study that area for whatever myriad of reasons, such is grave error. It's one thing to read and not understand. It's another altogether to create a "canon within a canon," which is the end result of being negligent towards the study of eschatology." <---

I don't know anyone who would ignore studying the issue with a goal of simply of remaining in ignorance. What I am saying -- and I have heard others say -- is that they have studied this issue prayerfully and intently. There are plenty of believers -- even here on SermonIndex -- who hold to varying opinions about this matter even after much personal and prayerful study. It is just that some of us realize that there can be unity of the faith even if we don't necessarily agree on this matter.

The important fundamental concept is to be PREPARED for whatever might come our way (even if we might not be totally certain about what may or may not happen). I am under the impression that a believer can be both prepared for both at the same time. We can be prepared for a sudden gathering of the Bride "at a time that we think not" before the wrath of God is poured out -AND- we can be prepared for any persecution, trials and tribulations that we might face when God pours out His wrath upon the entire world.

Yet you raise a very real issue that I was trying to raise. Should we consider something "canon" that is so speculative?

I know that I have spoken with brethren who are almost feisty with their views because they are "so certain" of them that it is almost as if they think that anyone who disagrees is "putting their fingers in their ears" (I have actually been told that). I once spoke with a person who would boast of her many years of study on this issue (as if the rest of us don't do the same) and her status as a "watchman." She proclaimed her position as undeniable and dismissed those who might disagree as having "believed a lie." I asked her, "But have you ever changed your opinion during those years you studied this issue?" It took a while, but she finally acknowledged that she did...but that God finally "opened her eyes." I said that it would be nice if she afforded the rest of us the same patience she wanted before she "arrived" to her absolute conclusion.

So, yes, it is possible that there are some lazy people who just don't care to study this topic. Yet that is not what anyone here is doing (at least, none that I am aware of). There are plenty of us who lean toward a pre-trib rapture ONLY AFTER many years of prayerful study and contemplation. Admitting that we aren't entirely certain about this...but that we are resting in the grace of God regardless of the outcome...well, it isn't any sort of "easy way out" and it is far from any sort of "borderline heresy." I'm sure that you didn't mean this as such, but I just wanted to clarify that there are many of us who don't fit the "lazy" or "unstudied" mold yet still draw a different conclusion to the matter.

Personally, I value and consider the opinions of others that I respect and the points upon which those opinions are based on this subject (and many others). Like I said, I lean toward a view that Christ will return to gather His Bride BEFORE the period that God's wrath is poured out upon the whole earth. I base this upon several things that I have discussed previously in the other threads. Interestingly, each time that I brought up those specific reasons, I never did hear much of a rebuttal for those specificities themselves.

Still, even though I strongly lean toward the view mentioned above, I am keenly aware that a different scenario might play out. I rest in the knowledge that everything will work out in the end for those who belong to the Lord. It is the "pan-trib" idea conveyed by Dave Wilkerson. It is the "pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib" idea conveyed by Keith Green.

Again, I think that we agree on much more than those things that we might disagree on. I don't consider these things to be "prerequisites" for fellowship. In fact, I think that there is plenty of agreements even within the various camps about eschatology. There is a common misconception that "pre-trib" people don't believe that we will face tribulation in the last days. That is one promise from Scripture that we can count on ("In this world you will face tribulation...")! We agree on the trumpets, bowls and seals. We agree about a great anti-Christ and the mark of the beast. We agree about a great falling away...rampant deception...and other specificities.

The main difference between my view and that of some others is that I lean toward a view that Christ will gather His Bride -- suddenly at an hour that we know not -- before the wrath of God is poured out upon the whole world. My view isn't quick...packaged...regurgitated...or handed down to me by some TV preacher who isn't willing to suffer for the cause of Christ. My view is arrived at only after much prayerful study and consideration of various scenarios and the Scriptures upon which those scenarios are based.

Brother Jimmy, I certainly don't think that you were (or even meant to seem) inflammatory. I suppose that my posts can often seem confusing. I hope that I have been able to point out just what I mean (and what others might mean) when we speak of "pan-tribulation" -- not as an excuse for lazy study, but as an admission that we might not know with absolute certainty HOW it will come, but that we should be prepared by resting in the knowledge that God is in control of all things. I think that, in this sense, most sincere pre-wrath or post-wrath people are "pan-trib."


_________________
Christopher

 2010/8/19 4:11Profile





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