Will the rapture occur in our live time ?
| 2010/8/12 1:58|
| Re: Rapture|
Matt 24v36, 'But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only'.
| 2010/8/12 6:31||Profile|
This world is not my home anymore.
| Re: Rapture|
My pre-trib friends are admitting to seeing things happen in the US and abroad that they thought they'd never be here to see.
Who knows when He's returning but I think we're in for ride of our life!! Read your Bible like never before, love others like never before, and pray like never before and who knows!!
God bless you!
| 2010/8/12 7:37||Profile|
| Re: Rapture|
The Rapture will not occur at all in our lifetime or any time in the future for it is a past event. Christians who are alive and remaining are being caught up to meet the Lord in the air every day. The dead in Christ have arisen, they are with the Lord.
The people that we read about in the New Testament were real living breathing normal souls like you and I today. They were not dressed in silk fluttering in the breeze. Their hair wasn't glittering white and none of them had angels wings. They were real people, flesh and blood. They made mistakes. Some have hit their fingers with the hammer and maybe something other than what we'd expect came out of their mouths. They were real people.
I am stressing that they were real people because we don't believe they were. We think that the New Testament writings were only meant for us because we think that these are the "Last Days".
When a letter says to the Church at Corinth, was it speaking to us here in New York City? No! Oh certainly there are truths that we can garner out it, but initially there were believers at Corinth that asked Paul some questions and he sent them a letter to explain to them some issues that had arisen in their midst. Those letters were in answer to THEIR questions NOT ours. They were REAL people with real concerns, and God loved these real people.
We will say that these are real people with our mouths, but in our heart of hearts we do not believe it. Why? Because we believe that when the writer uses words "NEAR", "LAST DAYS", they are referring to us and they are not.
For example when Peter stood up on that great day of Pentecost and spoke about what the Prophet Joel said referring to what was happening on that day, he said, "This is that, which was spoken of by the prophet Joel, that in the last days I shall pour out my spirit upon all flesh".
Because the words, "last days" were spoken we believe that what Peter was referring to was an unknown end off in the future. Why would Peter answer a question to the Jews that said, "These men are drunk with new wine" with something that was to happen in some remote future?
These were REAL men, insomuch that God saved thousands of them in that one day.
Another example of the realness of people to whom Paul was speaking to is, Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
He admonishes his readers to "know the time". Matthew 25 kicks into play here with the Ten Virgins. Midnight was coming and Paul was telling them that darkness was about to grip Jerusalem, her doom was coming. It was time to awake out of sleep for the revelation of Jesus Christ was about to be unveiled that He is KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS and His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will never end.
When Jesus went into heaven on that great day of His Ascension. The Holy Ghost was not yet imparted, many of the scriptures in reference to her demise were spoken of in Matthew 24 that Jesus spoke of hadn't yet arrived, only the merciful portions of the prophets were done it was in hopes that the Jews would receive their Messiah, but in rejection desolation's were determined on them and their city. Jesus was cut off in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel but the week continued after His death and resurrection and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and all that the scriptures have spoken of were fulfilled in that first century.
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
The some standing there were real people hearing with real ears what Jesus was telling them. Think about their minds for a moment. Wouldn't you think if you were standing there that day that the kingdom of God was going to come very shortly because one of us would be around to see it come?
The resurrection occured at the end of the days to which this prophecy was referring to. It was a spiritual resurrection so no one saw it. It has to be believed just as much as Jesus must be believed though there is no historical document to suggest that Jesus ever existed outside the bible. And I think that is so, so that this whole enterprise must be by faith not by sight.
| 2010/8/12 10:47|
| 12 Reasons for the rapture|
Twelve Reasons for the Rapture
Johan Malan, University of the North, South Africa
Abstract: The rapture is a very important promise in the chronology of end-time events. It must be properly understood if we wish to be ready and worthy to escape the coming tribulation period.
During the rapture, true Christians will disappear from the earth in the twinkling of an eye:
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words (1 Thes. 4:16-18).
By way of the rapture the Lord will snatch away His disciples for whom He has gone to prepare a place in heaven. The harvest of souls for the kingdom of God will then gathered in heaven. There are various biblical reasons why there must be, and consequently will be, a rapture of believers at the end of the church dispensation:
1. It marks the end of the church age
The rapture formally ends the dispensation of the church on earth as the members of the true church will then be removed from earth and taken to heaven. Only the backsliders, the nominal believers, the members of deluded and dead Christian churches, as well as all the followers of false [non-Christian] religions will remain behind on earth. The people who do not turn to Christ then to be saved, will join the deceived masses who will enter into a covenant with the false messiah [Antichrist] to worship and follow him. The signs of the times indicate that we are at present very close to the end of the church dispensation. The Bible describes this time as a period of great falling away from the truth, and also of intensified demonic activities. Satan is lulling certain churches into a deep spiritual sleep, while occupying the attention of others with deceptive signs and wonders performed by false prophets.
At the same time, the coming antichristian dispensations all-inclusive ideology of universal or cosmic unity (holism or monism) is actively propagated. Structures are also created for the world government, world religion, and world economy of the Antichrist. It is not without reason that the Lord Jesus urges us to stand firm against the deception of the last days, and to watch and pray always that we may be found worthy to escape the coming tribulation period (Lk. 21:36).
It is important to consider the rapture in its dispensational context i.e. at the end of the church age and just before the beginning of the tribulation period. Within this perspective we should resist the moral collapse and spiritual falling away that are typical of the last days of the church dispensation, while also opposing the reforms aimed at promoting the global governance and ecumenical alliance of world religions that will allow the Antichrist and false prophet the opportunity to gain control over the world and to institute the new world order. We are dispensationally in a terminal situation in which most people sadly grow cold in their love towards Christ while the unrighteousness is increasing due to an emerging international culture of sin. We should actively denounce this trend, as well as the globalising reforms aimed at instituting the next dispensation.
In times like these, preaching about the expected rapture is critically important. We are like long distance runners who hear the bell ringing to announce the last round of the race. This message motivates us not to relax but to persevere to the end. Peter says: Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God? (2 Pet. 3:11-12). We should not lose perspective and start compromising under the pressure of a rapidly changing world, but keep on fighting the good fight of faith while resisting all forms of evil.
2. It affords the Antichrist the opportunity to be revealed
The rapture is directly related to the revelation of the Antichrist:
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved (2 Thess. 2:6-10).
The true church of Christ, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is withholding the Antichrist, who can clearly only be revealed after the church has been taken out of the way. The Holy Spirit in the church is stronger than the spirit of error that is operating in the evil world to deceive people. When the true church is suddenly taken away the light of the world will vanish and the hour of complete spiritual darkness will take effect. Under these circumstances, the man of sin will be able to reveal himself without any opposition. The rapture has to occur before he can be revealed!
To prepare people to be ready for the rapture calls for a spiritual disposition of absolute loyalty to the true Christ and also the unqualified rejection of the false cosmic Christ of all faiths.
3. It is a strong motivation for steadfastness in a time of backsliding
The coming of the heavenly Bridegroom will occur during a time of religious compromise and worldliness. There will be a great falling away from the truth of Gods Word. A relatively small group of evangelical Christians will shine like lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation (Phil. 2:15). As in the times of Noah and Lot, the earth will be filled with violence, materialism and sexual perversion. Unfortunately, the spirit of unrighteousness and immorality will also take its toll among Christians. They will relax their vigilance and make downward adjustments in their spiritual standards: And because lawlessness [sin] will abound, the love of many will grow cold (Mt. 24:12). Many Christians will keep such a low profile that they ultimately lapse into complete passivity (spiritual sleep). Jesus warned His followers against this phenomenon and emphasised the expectation of His sudden coming as a strong motivation for steadfastness:
Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning lest coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch! (Mk. 13:35-37).
Inactive Christians are obviously not strongly dedicated to the Lord and they have a tendency to grow cold in their love towards Him. The process of growing cold manifests in two ways: firstly, they develop a love for the world and worldly parties where they eat and drink to excess; secondly, anxiety and depression take root in their minds and also pull them down spiritually. Against this kind of waywardness the Lord Jesus warned His disciples and again offered the rapture as a positive motivating force to remain steadfast to the end:
But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come upon you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man (Lk. 21:34-36).
4. It is an escape from the disaster area of divine judgements
The rapture also constitutes a dramatic rescue operation in which the true believers are removed from the scene of divine judgements. Although the rapture is a unique occurrence, there are examples in the Bible of times when God poured out His wrath but provided an escape route to the true believers as they were not the objects of His wrath. In the time of Noah, God announced His judgements upon a wicked and perverted generation: "And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make yourself an ark..." (Gen. 6:13-14). Shortly before the commencement of the judgements the eight believers escaped the disaster area by entering the ark. God Himself closed the door behind them before He judged the sinners (Gen. 6:16-23).
In the time of Lot the believers were also rescued. The night before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah they were ordered to evacuate the city and flee to the mountains. The angels emphasised the fact that they could do nothing as long as Lot and his family were still among the wicked. Fire and brimstone rained down from the heavens shortly after their departure. The cities with all their inhabitants were destroyed (Gen. 19:13-25). The Bible says that there is a clear correlation between these historic events and God's end-time dealing with believers and unbelievers (Lk. 17:26-30; also read Gen. 6 and 19).
People who are cynical about the promise of the rapture and do not heed the admonition to be prepared to escape the coming tribulation period reveal a very reckless attitude. What do you think would have happened to the believers (and the entire human race) if Noah argued as follows: God is a God of love and I dont really believe that He will send a flood to judge all people; therefore, I am not going to build an ark to escape this so-called judgement. Or what would have happened to Lot and his family if he took the following stand: I think the prophesied judgement over Sodom and Gomorrah should be interpreted symbolically. I dont have to escape for my life. Even if the disaster does occur I believe that God will protect us from His wrath here in this place.
The coming judgements during the tribulation period are irrefutable biblical facts. Jesus said there will be great tribulation such as has not been since the beginning of the world (Mt. 24:21), and that we should be ready to escape it (Lk. 21:36).
5. It is a direct intervention by God
The supernatural nature of the rapture, in which millions of Christians will be caught up in the air, will be so clearly an intervention by God that no scientific explanation can ever account for this astounding phenomenon. There might be a few absurd explanations which, as in the case of the evolution theory, will only be accepted by those whose minds have been blinded by the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4). It is only an almighty God who can resurrect and change millions of Christians in a single moment and catch them away from planet earth. He will take away His own while the others will be left behind.
The hand of the Lord will also unmistakably be seen in the judgements that will be poured out over a degenerate humanity after the rapture. The dramatic effect of the rapture as well as the severity of the apocalyptic judgements that will follow in its wake will be a clear message to a multireligious and apostate humanity that their only hope is in returning to the Triune God and His inerrant Word. The rapture will also utterly refute the spiritualisation theology in which many of the plain biblical statements are spiritualised and thereby deprived of their literal meaning. In this way liberal theologians have disposed of many of the precious promises and dire warnings in the Bible by alleging that they are merely to be regarded as symbolic or allegorical expressions.
After the rapture, millions of people will continue to harden their hearts. As a result of this attitude they will receive a spirit of delusion which will induce them to believe the lies of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:11-12). However, there will also be many people who will have a new appreciation for the Word of God. They will seek the Lord and call upon His Name, regardless of the consequences of Christian worship in a Christ-rejecting new world order.
6. It is associated with the first resurrection
The rapture is directly related to the first resurrection when all the believers will get glorified resurrection bodies. Millions of those who are going to be caught away are already dead; consequently they must first be raised from the dead in incorruptible, glorified bodies, like unto Christs glorious body. At the same moment the mortal bodies of the living believers will be miraculously changed into glorified bodies while they pass from mortality to immortality without dying. Paul explains this promise to a Christian congregation as follows:
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality (1 Cor. 15:51-53).
To the Philippians he said:
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body (Phil. 3:20-21).
The first resurrection is also referred to as the resurrection of the just (Lk. 14:14), as well as the resurrection of life (Jn. 5:29). These people are indeed blessed to be partakers of the first resurrection:
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years (Rev. 20:6).
The godless will have no part in the first resurrection, the rapture, and the millennial reign of Christ. That is why John says: But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished (Rev. 20:5). They will be raised during the second resurrection which is also called the resurrection of condemnation (Jn. 5:29).
7. It separates true and nominal Christians
Apart from the division that the rapture will effect between the saved and unsaved people in the world, it will also separate the true believers from the nominal Christians within the church. Those who only have a form of godliness will be left behind. This fate will befall them despite the fact that they may have regarded themselves as members of the church of Christ, like the foolish virgins also did. Only after the rapture will many of them discover the absence of the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Although they can still put matters straight then, the Bridegroom will not open the door to them by way of a second rapture, much as they may desire it and urgently knock on heavens door. They will have to remain outside in the cold, face the dark days of the tribulation, and be prepared to die as martyrs for their faith.
How many millions of Christians indeed find themselves in this category of self-deceived and unsaved church members who trust in a dead form of godliness! They argue that since they are baptised and confirmed in the church, they have entered into an eternal and irrevocable covenant with God. In the light of this perception they feel quite comfortable even though they dont have a clear testimony of being saved and born again through true repentance to the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself said: Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:3). It is only the regenerating work of the Lord that can save your soul!
Be sure that you are not weighed in Gods balance at the time of the rapture and found wanting. Then you will be left behind when the Lord Jesus takes away His bride (Mt. 25:10-13).
8. It is a meeting with Jesus Christ
When the Lord Jesus comes back to earth He will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. Those who died in Christ will be raised from the dead while the living saints will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Together they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
The greatest expectation with regard to the rapture is not just to get away from earth, but to arrive in heaven with the Lord! The longing bride wishes to be united with her heavenly Bridegroom. People who dont believe in the rapture must ask themselves how else, other than by the rapture, can they be caught up from earth and divinely moved to the glorious presence of the Lord Jesus in heaven. The Christians will be caught up ( 1 Thess. 4:17). After His earthly ministry, Jesus was bodily caught up to heaven (Rev. 12:5). Paul was caught up to the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2). In all these cases the same verb, i.e. catch up (Gr. harpazo) is used, which means rapture. On this occasion the heavenly Bridegroom will not appear in public as He will at His appearing at the end of the tribulation, when every eye shall see Him (Rev. 1:7). He will come secretly, like a thief in the night, to snatch away his bride. From the viewpoint of the world she will suddenly disappear without a trace! She will then be in heavenly places, in the divine presence of the King of kings!
9. It is a summons to appear before the judgement seat of Christ
To be well prepared for the rapture with a view to the destination of the bride at the end of the journey involves preparations for certain commitments. One of them is to appear before the judgement seat of Christ. The prospect of the rapture clearly confronts us with the responsibility to give account to Christ of our lives after conversion. Paul says:
For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad (2 Cor. 5:10).
So then each of us shall give account of himself to God (Rom. 14:10).
The Lord Jesus said: And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work (Rev. 22:12).
We must never think about the rapture in isolation as only a journey to heaven. It is a means to a wonderful end. We know why we will be removed from the impending disaster area of divine judgement on earth. But we also need to be thoroughly prepared for what is awaiting us at the end of the journey in heaven. The very first appointment that we have after meeting the Lord Jesus in the air is to appear before His judgement seat.
Since only Christians will be caught away during the rapture, only Christians will appear before the judgement seat where their works will be tested:
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each ones work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each ones work, of what sort it is. If anyones work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyones work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire (1 Cor. 3:11-15).
We are not saved by works but by faith. However, faith without works is dead. In the lives of Christians, a true faith will produce works that befit repentance. For these works of dedication which are done by the enabling power of the Holy Spirit, rewards of grace will be given at the judgement seat of Christ. On that day it will be evident that some Christians were much more productive in the work of the Lord, having used their talents to their full potential. Others will be found to have been less productive, and yet others will stand there empty-handed saved as through fire. The following five crowns will be awarded to Christians in the service of the Lord:
· The imperishable crown for a holy, dedicated life (1 Cor. 9:24-25).
· The crown of rejoicing for people who lead others to Christ (1 Thess. 2:19).
· The crown of glory for faithful pastors (1 Pet. 5:2-4).
· The crown of life for Christian martyrs (Rev. 2:10).
· The crown of righteousness for those who love His coming (2 Tim. 4:8).
10. It is a journey to the marriage of the Lamb
After her appearance before the judgement seat of Christ the bride will be united to her heavenly Bridegroom, never to be separated from Him again. The burning desire for the rapture is, therefore, also the expression of a desire to be at the marriage feast of the Lamb in His ivory palace, and to be led to the King in a spotless garment woven with gold (Ps. 45), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (Rev. 21:2).
Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish (Eph. 5:25-27).
11. It is a journey to our eternal home
The Lord Jesus promised that He would return to take His bride away to her heavenly abode. Before He ascended to heaven He said:
In My Fathers house are many mansions
I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also (Jn. 14:2-3).
This mansion in heaven is so beautiful that it cannot even be imagined by mortal man. The Bible says: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him (1 Cor. 2:9). John says that the mansions and streets of the new Jerusalem are built with pure gold, like transparent glass. Each of its gates is a large, magnificent pearl. The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with all sorts of precious stones, and its light is like a crystal clear stone (Rev. 21:9-21).
This description conveys the idea of heaven being a quite superlative environment of dazzling beauty, magnificence, radiance and glory beyond anything we can imagine at present. To be raptured to such a place is indeed a most desirable thought and something to earnestly look forward to! As the Scripture says, In Thy presence is fullness of joy; and at Thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore (Ps. 16:11).
12. It leads to the acceptance of our judicial and royal position
After the rapture, the glorified Christians will judge the world with Christ in righteousness (1 Cor. 6:2), after which they will reign with Him as kings on earth. In Revelation 4 and 5, the glorified church is represented by the 24 elders:
And they sang a new song, saying: You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth (Rev. 5:9-10).
EPILOGUE: Do you appreciate how tremendously important the rapture is to every Christian, how highly dramatic the events are that are associated with it, and how exceedingly worthwhile it is to be ready for it? Christianity and the church stand to be spiritually deprived and impoverished if this promise, and all the obligations that it involves, is not earnestly proclaimed. Without the Bibles prophetic perspective on the end-time we will grope in darkness and never correctly determine our priorities.
While we are discerning the approaching footsteps of the Lord Jesus in the signs of the times we must be very sure that we really do belong to Him; otherwise He will pass us by when He comes for His bride. The unsaved, nominal Christians who have never had a personal encounter with the Lord will, one day, plead for mercy in vain before the great white throne of the final judgement. The Lord will declare to them: I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practise lawlessness! (Mt. 7:23).
There is no need whatsoever to be heading for a tragic end of disillusionment and rejection. If we have genuinely experienced repentance toward God for our sins and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21), and our hearts have been changed and are burning within us with love for the Lord, we will be worthy to meet the heavenly Bridegroom when He comes in the midnight hour. He said to His disciples: Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master
Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants
Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect (Lk. 12:35-40).
| 2010/8/15 6:19|
| Re: Rapture|
Here at this site most of us are convinced
of the eminent return of our LORD and Savior
in HIS glory and power to reign in righteous-
ness and establish peace. If you are alive
and prepared and ready when the Bridegroom
comes, blessed are you!! Watch and pray
and prepare your hearts for JESUS is coming
Martin G. Smith
| 2010/8/15 16:15||Profile|
| Re: |
edited for errors brought to light by posts from Ccchhhrrriiisss and comments by King Jimmy after this initial post.
When the word rapture is heard, these persons, in the use of that word, show that they are in agreement or have been influenced from a dispensational viewpoint in some way, shape, or form.
Through a man named Darby, advocated and made popular here in the states by a man named Scofield, the concept of a "rapture" was made popular. The whole concept of an ushering away of the church before tribulation was re-introduced by Darby, after about 500 years of dying out when first introduced. Darby used the theological invention to fill in lose ends unexplained and scripturally inadequate in his dispensationalistic ideology.
(It cannot be called doctrine).
Prior to the mid 1800's this idea of a pre-tribulation resurrection, they named 'rapture', was advocated by fewer and fewer proponents, until it lay virtually silent. The concept was taught after apostate Romanism took control of Roman subjects beliefs and religion by force. In approximately 1500 years of Church history, this idea never had staying power.
Were the apostles mistaken in not teaching this? Why did Jesus not plainly state such? Were they hiding something in the words they used to clarify thing???
Why was it that only after persecution and almost total elimination of the primitive church, being driven underground, that this concept was formulated?
Consider this fact: If there were a pre-trib rapture, there would be three judgements, and not two as the Bible reveals.
What once originated from apostate Rome is now a popular concept. So it's asked, how many times on record has it been the majority that has been correct in understanding and practicing God's truth?
If there were a pre-trib rapture, God would be operating differently than He has ever done before, and God does not change. God's people have both suffered in remaining faithful and overcome in the midst of whatever opposition, whether by death or God exploiting His glorious dominion over current affairs.
'Rapturists' go so far as to say that they are saying resurrection when they say rapture, but the two words do not even mean the same thing. Though you might experience rapture in resurrection, to date, it is not known that anyone experiences ascension or resurrection in a state of rapture.
They also say that I Thess. 4.16-18 is talking about this event, rapture; yet, when Jesus' revelation to John clarifies this event mentioned in first Thessalonians it is hardly talking about something that happens before the tribulation:
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets... ...And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev. 10.5-7, 11.14-18
Consider these words of Jesus (High Priestly prayer) before His willing sacrafice of Himself towards the reconciliation of all things unto Himself. In praying for those who are his disciples, he petitions, and later relates those who believe through their influence in the earth into all the things He prayed for them:
"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
The whole concept of a pre-trib rapture flies in the face of God's dealing with the world through His people, and would invalidate Jesus prayer. Was Jesus praying wrong?
There are many other reasons that could be given to show that the idea is not scripturally sound, the most obvious of which is the need to add or take meaning from scriptures that speak of the first resurrection in order to make the idea more palatable.
If the Olivet discourse found in Mt. 24, Mk. 13, and Lk. 21 are looked at in conjunction with one another, all of which compliment each other, Jesus provides a most comprehensive explanation about the details of events.
Mk. 13, gives the clearest scenario of the order of events, and if Mt. 24 is studied towards clarity, it confirms Mk. 13 to a T. Luke's account helps tie up loose ends (that SEEM TO be implied in the other two accounts.
Some say that these have already been filfilled, and indeed they have, in a sense. The same could be said of Revelation and other futuristic writings in both the Old and New Testament; however, many fail to account that prophecy is spiritual reaching into the physical and just because that which is temporary (the physical) confirms the eternal reality does not prove that it will not repeat itself in a greater way in the future. The physical merely confirms the validity of the prophecy. It is never the standard of measurement to what prophecy entails. If we base physical events (that are always changing) as the source of conclusion towards the validity of prophecy from God we will be the ones, more often than not mistaken or more confused than when we first recongnize them.
Growing up i heard all kinds of speculative rumors, that Kissinger was the antichrist, then Regan, and so many others. The UPC code was the mark of the beast...and on and on. 'Experts' said that certain nations would do certain things and then these nations fell out of power.
All this idiocy continues even today.
This has nothing to do with what Jesus said to be doing in the face of events that indicate His soon return. We are not to be getting all politically involved, jumping to conclusions about changing world affairs, getting all uptight about natural disasters, wars, etc.
He simply states these things have to happen. Regarding them, we are to note them, then turn our attention elsewhere:
"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh...And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Lk. 21.28, 34-36
We are not to be trying to figure these things out, and those who have done such in the past, take their eyes of of Jesus to do it coming up with all kinds of faulty conclusions in the process.
Jesus said, "no man knows the day or hour," but, many have trouble taking Him at His word and instead run off on all kinds of ridiculous tangents. This is no less rebellious than shaking your fist in the face of God.
The purpose of prophecy is to lift up praise to God as in bow down and worship. It is for the express purpose of drawing us nearer to Jesus Christ and not things that happen in this world. In the communion with Jesus Christ that comes through worship of Him, His Spirit will guide you into all truth.
Have all these speculative books and theologies whether pre-trib or after ever taught one how to walk in deeper relationship with the one who made us?
It is not for us to know the times and the seasons.
Why can't people just accept this?
And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Quit looking towards the signs and the events and focus on the author (and finisher of our faith), Heb. 12.1-2.
The mandate to every follower of Jesus is to occupy until He comes. In this, God is glorified; not in escapism that is contrived through picking and choosing certain verses to believe and avoiding those relative to the events of the end time resurrection.
| 2010/8/15 23:17|
| Re: |
--> You wrote: "Through a man named Darby, advocated and made popular here in the states by a man named Scofield, the concept of a "rapture" was made popular. The whole concept of an ushering away of the church before tribulation was invented by Darby to fill in lose ends unexplained and scripturally inadequate in his dispensationalistic theology. (It cannot be called doctrine).
Prior to the mid 1800's this idea of a pre-tribulation resurrection, they named 'rapture', never existed. The concept was never before taught, believed, nor advocated. In well over 1700 years of Church history, this newly invented idea was unheard of." <--
This is inaccurate.
Did you read this is a book that took such a position on the matter...or did you actually study this for yourself via exhaustive study of ancient documents? To be clear: The idea of a gathering of the Bride of Christ before the period of God's wrath existed long before Darby, Scofield, a little girl or the 1800s.
Ephrem, an early Byzantine-Syrian Church leader, wrote in approximately 373 AD: "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, PRIOR TO THE TRIBULATION THAT IS TO COME, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (from "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World" by Ephrem the Syrian). This is some 1400-1500 years BEFORE the popular date that many "post-trib" advocates claim.
More importantly, I think that it is important to not make claims as an INDISPUTABLE FACT what is merely a persuasion based upon the limits of our minds on this side of that "glass darkly." Do we really need to make an announcement that the "rapture" is certain or certainly false? Wouldn't it be much safer and more accurate (and honest) to convey the hint of uncertainty that we feel (or SHOULD feel regarding issues that aren't entirely clear in the Scriptures)?
This is a deep topic...and has been discussed (and debated) plenty of times in the past. The discussions that have been most helpful are often the ones in which people do not make announcements about the certainty of issues that are, at best, speculative after personal study and prayer. There are some great men of God who are post-trib. There are some other men of God who are pre-trib. Me? I am somewhat uncertain. I think that it is best to be PREPARED for ANYTHING (including all possible scenarios) by simply and sincerely spending intimate time with the Lord.
When we enter a forum and announce something as a fact that is certainly open for discussion and further study, it can unwittingly cause all kinds of conflict.
| 2010/8/16 2:44||Profile|
| Re: |
i came back to life through a fatal accident in 1985. Injuries remained to be healed, not the least of which was retrograde amnesia. Some time shortly after making SI this ones cyber-home, i started some threads regarding end times and things to occur relative to the second coming. The text in one post stated that i had not heard the concept rapture before just recently, and to the best of memory, at that point, it did not exist. (Through those threads, one of which was called "a can of worms", memories started flooding back into consciousness, and more questions were created in this mind than answers, especially when my aunt gave me all the materials written and recorded by Tim LaHey(sp?). La Hey's materials were not all gone through as further questions and contradictions regarding his materials and my own Biblical learnings (still quite incomplete) grrew to a point where nearly every idea was surrounded with contradictions and questions.
It was determined at that point to take Jesus direct revelations regarding this from the Olivet discourse and the book of Revelation in relation to each other, and to study into the OT prophets regarding the well over 300 references to end time events from Jesus Revelation to John.
Honestly, hostoric personal reseach went back only to how this concept was repopularised (repopularization now known through what you have written). Ephrem though name known of in studying church apostacy, has been ignored regarding this, considering church apostacy's advent beginning in 315 A.D. through Constantine, the true primitive first church being eventually driven underground, not taking psrt in Romanism. (Personal concern was with how this concept grew into popularity currently, the initiators propogating it at root level of this recent turn in ideology, and the theology that made it popular.)
Apparently, my information is both incomplete and innacurate.
The only thing that can be stated with surety is how it was popularized and that it is extra-biblical (if not false).
The best indication SEEMS, through intense Bible study (ignoring extra-biblical resources) that the resurrection will occur sometime during tribulation between mid-point and end.
There is this and that Jesus said not to concern yourself about matters of times and seasons. Rather, "watch and pray."
Today that is what is being done here.
Though the former post has historic innacuracies, (thanks for clarification Chris,) nobodyobody should ignore Jesus declarations regarding these matters. When we do, we are operating independently from Him and trusting our own understanding.
The way these things are seen now is that anybody who is not in the business of drawing into closer relationship with God in Jesus Christ is off-base. As Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, the clearest picture any can have about it is to draw nearer to Him, and in this relationship, He will tell us what need be known when neccessary:
Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith and praying towards OUR redemption.
Thank you for clarification.
Seriously think and function in terms of this rebuke and admonishment. You can ignore what i wrote, but to your own hurt, please do not ignore what Jesus says.
Love, Hope, and Faith,
...I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
| 2010/8/16 8:48|
This world is not my home anymore.
| Re: ccchhhrrriiisss|
This is inaccurate...
When we enter a forum and announce something as a fact that is certainly open for discussion and further study, it can unwittingly cause all kinds of conflict.
I must ask where you said this to snufalapagus who announced the preterist view as a fact in his FIRST SENTENCE: The Rapture will not occur at all in our lifetime or any time in the future for it is a past event. (sorry snuffies!!)
If youre going to say something to one, you might as well jump on the bandwagon and say something to them all for espousing their view as fact. Just sayin...
But I am up for a discussion for another rapture debate because the pre-trib view of the rapture of the church (to me) smacks of an anti-Semitism view as well as I dont understand how pre-trib people keep all the comings of Jesus straight but thats just me. (huge grin) I've got some others too!
God bless you, Chris
| 2010/8/16 10:37||Profile|