Romans 5:8-10, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His Life."

We were reconciled to God before repentance, faith or belief.
When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,

i am not arguing what you say, although one could "read in" you are saying repentance is not needed... I hope you do not meen that, but more important I think you are missing the "great" truth for the smaller one in this passage, the "great" truth is not that he loved us even when we where sinners, to me it is the latter part "much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His Life."

If Christ death can give us reconciliation with God, how much more do we get from Christ life! MUCH MORE.... so what we should strive to seek out since we are saved, what is this much more we should be saved from once we are reconciled with God, much more.... amazing words.

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CHRISTIAN

Don't know what you're trying to say Tuc, but that Subject title alone sends chills up & down my spine. What comes to my mind is "How can 2 walk together unless they agree?".... I believe in both the free-will of man, & the sovereignty of God.

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Richie

I never said that repentance is not important, but it is true that repentance is not needed to be reconciled with God.

You should read Except Ye Repent but Harry Ironside great book that is availible free to read online.

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Matthew Guldner

What's your definition of "reconciled to God"?

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Richie

Many verses speak of repentance as very necessary for salvation, I will list a few, the problem i think is when we try and make salvation within a fixed box. I am sure some believed , repented in that order, some may had the other way around. I think so many try "systemaize" to much and have a perfect understanding and order of divine things that are beyond our full comprehension. As is salvation, that God reconciled us to to when we still where sinners i dont think anyone will argue against. But i think salvation is a very broad thing, its spoken of in three differnet tenses in scripture, past , present and future. So one could say its a "process" in one way, and in anther sense it is set and foreknown by God and he determined his Son to come and die for us whie we yet where sinners.

but some scriptures that no doubt say repentence is needed to be saved are these.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

one could argue that if you do not continue to live in continual repentance, you might not be saved in a future tense even tho you in a past tense have been saved, some scripture seem to suggest that possibility. And these are just a few scriptures amongst many more speaking of repentance as something essential, saying repentence is not "needed" would be heresy when looking at classical historic christianity.

I do not think the sequence of salvation is the most important, as long as you can see that all "ingredients" are there, then what occurs first second and third is not an important issue, as long as you clearly can see all in place, my experience that i for my self also see in scripture is it can differ from person to person, some seem to have been agonizing in repentance for weeks before coming to believe. Others believed and later repented afterwards. Paul the apostle did not repent before he meet the Lord, others the Lord meet seem to have had faith before they meet and afterwards repented and was "saved".

So i think it is not wise to systematize salvation to much, and absolutely not say repentance is not needed, if you are making a bread and leave out a ingredient you will not get the right bread, if you leave out the necessity of repentance you will get the easy belivism we are cursed with today. Jesus preached repentance, the Apostles Preached repentance, and so should we.

brother Christian

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CHRISTIAN

Hey Tuc,

Was just thinking about statements such as where John the Baptist said, 'Except you repent you shall all likewise perish' and also the frequent command given to people whenever the message of Christ was preached was: 'Repent and believe the gospel'. So it seemed like 'repenting and believing the gospel' were usually spoken of in the same breath.

Are you thinking of it in terms of the word 'repent' meaning something other than turning from individual sins/sinful lifestyle. So instead 'repent' would be more of an expression for a general turning away from 'reliance/faith on our self and our own works' towards 'reliance/faith in the work of Christ on the cross' ? I have sometimes seen people make a distinction in that way, as to what the word 'repentance' means.

God bless you :)

In Jesus,
John

This statement somehow goes along with Tuc believing that Christian's do not have a sinful nature; correct tuc? so perhaps we'd understand better what he's saying from that perspective.


Additionally, Tuc, what you said reminds me of universal salvation belief (eventually all of mankind will be reconciled to God) {this was one of my many bandwagons in 33 years} and had the Lord not been on my side and brought me out, I'd still be there.

Your statement below reminds me of that belief; example:

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Lisa

Narrow is the gate and few are they who will enter. Strong words, I know but right out of the Bible. Read Matthew 7.

There are many Christians by name only who truly belief that they will go to Heaven (I was one of them) But have not being born again through the Grace of God.

Unless you are born again, you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God, read John 3

God Bless you all