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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : "If you want to be born again, say these words..."

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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


A Seed must be sown in good ground before it can die and produce fruit. The ground is prepared and the Seed sown by the owner of the Seed. "Husbandman"?


 2010/8/7 12:19Profile

Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2774
Phoenix, Arizona USA


Christian wrote;
no doubt such a prayer saved many souls, i am sure of that, i am also sure such a prayer deceived millions in our world believing they are saved. Myself was saved from something similar.... but not in a church meeting or altar call, but through a telephone call, but i had reached the point where the only way for me was to either die or be saved, the "master artist" had for some long time been painting a portrait of repentance, in every detail and aspect of my life, and when he works it is not like with computers you can use the edit button, no the Lord paints a perfect picture of repentence for us, and when the time comes for the finishing touch it may be a prayer like that is what is needed to open the kingdom of God for us, but if that picture has not been drawn and human manipulative methods are used to "push" people to do this and no picture or work of God has been done, its a counterfeit picture....

so we need to know something about the people we ask to pray this, do we know they are very close to the kingdom we might lead them in such a prayer, but if we by the spirit get a sense they are far away we might need to sit down for three or four hours leading them through scriptures, show them they are guilty sinners, verse to verse to verse show them and when they KNOW they are sinners and without hope we can show them what God has done.

It all depends on one thing, if we are anointed by the Lord and his spirit leads us, i am sure sometimes one word can be an instrument to save someone, sometimes years of "work" , sometimes may be a sinners prayer and altar call.... anyhow, i think we need to most important be filled with the spirit and lead by him and we will do right.

Amen and amen brother...well spoken!

Ron Halverson

 2010/8/7 12:32Profile

Joined: 2006/6/10
Posts: 668
Northern Rockies, BC, Canada


I've always thought more on the lines of Charles Finney's "Directions To Sinners", lecture 18 in his "Lectures On Revivals Of Religion." I can't post URLs with my cell, but it's link is You'll be suprised of how he instructs sinners if you've never read his works!


 2010/8/7 16:09Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707



""Phillip: If I said that the Holy Spirit must reveal to us the truth of who Christ is and what He has done (some old timers called it enlightenment), and that the faith that we place in Christ for our salvation are both things given us of God, would I be saying what you are trying to say?""

Close, What is being born again? Must we not be born again so we can see the things of the Kingdom of God? How are we born again? By the Christ Seed from the Father, or we cannot call Him Father. Now that we are born again the Holy Spirit can do what He was sent to do.

John 14:6-7 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

For their to be another Comforter there must be a first One.
John 14:18-20 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

We don't need the Holy Spirit to manifest Jesus to us, He will do that Himself.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

The Holy Spirit will teach us all things that Jesus said, says and will say. But Christ Must be Present before The Holy Spirit can teach us what He is saying that we might understand all things of God.

John 14:26-29 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

He has gone away and come again in the Life giving Spirit of the incorruptable Seed of the Father, which is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". Then and only then can we have the mind of Christ that we are to renew our minds to, by the Holy Spirit teaching of Christ Himself and all that He is to the believer.

Christ has told us even before it comes to pass, It is He that is birthed in us and it is His Rest that He leaves us, it is the promise of Rest that God says in Christ we will enter. "My Peace I leave you"

In Christ: Phillip


 2010/8/7 20:35Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2091

 Re: Z.P.

Thank you all for posting on this thread.

From reading all the replies, the unanimous judgement you all gave concerning the quoted words in question being used is at the least a bad method and at the worst downright deceptive and perhaps heretical.

15 years ago I ignorantly was in favor of such and used the method myself. Thanks be to God I now see its detrimental effects,and also that I see it as being Biblically unwarrantable in written or verbal form. Although I realize God has used such positively,I'd have to say that He used it in spite of it,as He does so many other fleshly attempts of men to help God(I'm speaking foolishly now!)save more people.

If I were guilty of using and promoting this method in written or verbal form, I'd be grateful if a fellow believer lovingly approached me and brought this to my attention and instructed me in the way of His Spirit.

I think some here on S.I. would be more than willing to do so for me if they were aware of my ignorant yet erroneous presentation of Gospel Truth to unbelievers on the broad way to hell.

Would any here on S.I be willing to lovingly confront Zac Poonen on his error in doing so before us all,as it is in the public domain(his website). Unless of course we see no error or harm in such a presentation. Also,the fact that his sermons are often featured here on S.I. and his name a common one among most who frequent this website.

For the consideration of all to ponder,

"To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." (Romans 16:27)


Immortal, invisible, God only wise,
In light inaccessible hid from our eyes,
Most blessèd, most glorious, the Ancient of Days,
Almighty, victorious, Thy great Name we praise.

Unresting, unhasting, and silent as light,
Nor wanting, nor wasting, Thou rulest in might;
Thy justice, like mountains, high soaring above
Thy clouds, which are fountains of goodness and love.

To all, life Thou givest, to both great and small;
In all life Thou livest, the true life of all;
We blossom and flourish as leaves on the tree,
And wither and perish—but naught changeth Thee.

Great Father of glory, pure Father of light,
Thine angels adore Thee, all veiling their sight;
But of all Thy rich graces this grace, Lord, impart
Take the veil from our faces, the vile from our heart.

All laud we would render; O help us to see
’Tis only the splendor of light hideth Thee,
And so let Thy glory, Almighty, impart,
Through Christ in His story, Thy Christ to the heart.


To God the only wise,
Our Savior and our King,
Let all the saints below the skies
Their humble praises bring.

’Tis His almighty love,
His counsel, and His care,
Preserves us safe from sin and death,
And every hurtful snare.

He will present our souls,
Unblemished and complete,
Before the glory of His face,
With joys divinely great.

Then all the chosen seed
Shall meet around the throne,
Shall bless the conduct of His grace,
And make His wonders known.

To our Redeemer, God,
Wisdom and power belongs,
Immortal crowns of majesty,
And everlasting songs.

Thanks again to all readers and posters

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
(1 Timothy 1:17)

 2010/8/9 0:07Profile

Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


Savannah, I just want to highlight something.

Zac Poonen is from India. In many of the 3rd world countries or the persecuted countries, bibles are hard to get and can be illegal. For example,in Saudi Arabia, no bibles are allowed. If you are an outsider working there, you will have to leave your bible with the government and only can collect them back when you leave the country (I'm not sure whether these rules still apply now). Also, there's a lot of persecution going around and gatherings for Christians are illegal etc. Many of them may also be unable to understand if we talk 'too academically' as they may be uneducated etc due to poverty. As a result, God may use a simple saying of words such as have been put up by Zac Poonen to convert them (be it on the website or person to person. However, it doesn't mean that just because they are from the persecuted countries, anybody that say those words are saved.

While I believe its good and does no harm to highlight the concern to Zac Poonen or others, the modifications that are needed may be just including more explanations such as guidelines/tests on determining whether one is truly saved, don't expect instant perfect fruit and what needs to be done if one after saying those words still do not feel they are saved yet. (I'm just giving an example).

So, do take this part into consideration when writing to Zac Poonen.


 2010/8/9 8:53Profile

Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991


In India many have never even heard the name Jesus once, if you showed them a bible they could not read it, so brothers Poonens approach to present the gospel so everybody can understand it is appreciated, and although i agree the concern you share, yet sometimes it may be ok considering that i just thought about it, how would i write or tell someone to pray ? how would i word it if someone asked me -how do i pray? i would say the words are not the important, as long as your heart is right, but some utterance towards what we "want" is not wrong, we made it a formula that will work only you utter the words, we know it is not so. but brother zac is a very humble man, and if you write him prayerfully he maybe will respond, i know he "skips" the ones that is about "debate" and "arguments" he shares in one of his messages, but the ones who struggling and looking for help he reply as his time allows, so i think if you write him and share your concern and thoughts in a humble and loving way i am sure he would get back to you.


 2010/8/9 16:06Profile


Are the words of someone else from the sincerity of your own heart?

 2010/8/9 19:09

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