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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : John 20:23

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 Tozer's "Third Law of Spiritual Power"

From Elisabeth Elliot:

"A.W. Tozer's pamphlet, 'Five Vows of Spiritual Power'"

"The third vow of spiritual power is never defend yourself. Hum--that's not easy, is it? We're all born wanting to defend ourselves. Thrusting our fists heavenward and drawing our things around us, and sort of fending off other people. Well, Tozer suggests that we should never defend ourselves. We're all born with a desire to defend ourselves.

"If you insist upon defending yourself, God will let you do it. But if you turn the defense of yourself over to God, He will defend you. He told Moses once in Exodus 23, 'I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, an adversary to thine adversaries.'"

"A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal,
but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel."
(Proverbs 12:10)

May I add, the kindest words of the wicked are cruel as well. Humility is such an important quality.

 2010/7/9 23:48
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I believe the real "difficulty" is internal to us, that we are inclined NOT to forgive sin, or even want to, but rather enjoy the role of gatekeeper, controlling who gets in and doesn't.



I have no problem in forgiving sin against me. I have no right to forgive sin against you. In all sin there is a clash of wills with the revealed will of God so all sin whether against me or against you is also sin against God. Anyone who usurps God's unique authority in this stands in great jeopardy.

Anyone who claims God's authority when it was not given stands in mortal danger.

"Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Matt 7:22–23 NKJV


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/10 4:49Profile









 Re: Alleged "Clash of Wills"

Ron, I believe you are making a common exaggeration regarding the meaning and connotation of "sin."

The literal meaning of "hamartia" is simply "missing the mark." I think giving it the melodramatic and exaggerated meaning of "a clash of wills with the revealed will of God" is a mistake.

I know that goes against the grain around here, but there is nothing in "missing the mark" to give it the violent overtones you and others commonly ascribe to it.

"Hamartia (Ancient Greek: ἁμαρτία) is a term developed by Aristotle in his work Poetics. The term can simply be seen as a character’s flaw or error. The word hamartia is rooted in the notion of missing the mark (hamartanein) and covers a broad spectrum that includes accident and mistake, as well as wrongdoing, error, or sin."

In the Catholic and Calvinist traditions, John 20:23 is viewed, it seems, exclusively juridically, or judicially.

I believe John 20:23 must be viewed both in terms of human ministry as well as eternal, judicial terms.

And I must repeat. If God gives me authority, then I have not "usurped" it. That's silly. I know you disagree with me, but that's okay. You will stand, no matter what I think of this or that interpretation of yours.

"Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:4)

I direct that question to myself, "Who am I to judge someone else's servant?" You're not answerable to me. No matter how much you or I "miss the mark," God is able to make us stand.

I know you don't believe that the plain meaning of John 20:23 is accurate, and that's fine. Your soul is not in jeopardy because you disagree with me on a matter of interpretation. You're safe. You're saved by grace, not by doctrinal perfection.

"The ancient Greek word for sin, hamartia, is an archery term that refers to missing the mark."

Ron, we all miss the mark. We're shooting at the target, and none of us hits the absolute bull's eye.

Ronald Goetz

 2010/7/10 5:33









 Re:

For all have missed the mark and fallen short of the of the glory of God, in their character flaws and errors. And Christ demonstrates His love for us, in that while we were still missing the mark in our character flaws and errors, He died for us, making it entirely possible to not miss the mark by the same degree that we were missing before. What would we do without Aristotle to expound on Scripture for us?

Grace is truly selling cheap these days. At the current rate it shouldn't be too long until the blood of Christ has a net value close to that of gasoline. And even though the price of gas is up, I think most can afford it without much discomfort.

 2010/7/10 9:07
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Ron, I believe you are making a common exaggeration regarding the meaning and connotation of "sin."

The literal meaning of "hamartia" is simply "missing the mark." I think giving it the melodramatic and exaggerated meaning of "a clash of wills with the revealed will of God" is a mistake.

I know that goes against the grain around here, but there is nothing in "missing the mark" to give it the violent overtones you and others commonly ascribe to it.



This really shows that you have little idea of how to do exegesis which is the foundation of all Bible interpretation.

Words are not defined by the dictionary nor by their etymology but usage. Consequently all words in Biblical Greek need to be interpreted by their context and usage.

[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G0266&t=KJV]Strong's G266 - hamartia[/url]

Here is a little sentence I have teaching students for 50 years..."Bible words don't have definitions, they have histories". By that I mean that a word like 'hamartia' is a Greek word used to communicate a Hebrew concept. Hebrew has more than a dozen words for sin. So when we find a word like 'hamartia' we need to carry into the Greek word all the connotations of the Hebrew history of God's people. The only way you can possibly understand the Greek word 'hamartia' is to read your Old Testament until you are soaked in the meaning of what the Bible means by sin.

Sin is not merely 'missing the mark' it is many other things too one of which is active rebellion against the known will of God. Far from 'exaggerating' the meaning of sin your method of exposition empties of the word of centuries of what sin really was.

Sin is so serious that it is impossible to exaggerate its meaning and consequence. Christ did not die under the wrath of God against sin because my aim was slightly off but because my sin is an offence to a holy God which merited my death. If you read your Old Testament you will discover that the essence of sin is rebellion not sloppy archery.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/10 13:55Profile









 Re: Missing the Mark

As you wish, Ron.

 2010/7/11 3:15
iceman9
Member



Joined: 2008/2/15
Posts: 205
New York

 Re: John 20:23

RonaldGoetz
You should be very careful to avoid trying to isolate a scripture verse by itself and then building a doctrine on it. That is the standard program for cults.

RonaldGoetz said “I believe this verse is "difficult" for us for the same reason it was "difficult" for the Pharisees to accept it when Jesus said, "Son, your sins are forgiven." The Pharisees replied, "This is blasphemy! Only God can forgive sins!" We feel it is blasphemous to think that we Christians have the authority to forgive sins, for the very same reason the Pharisees did.”


You are so wrong in your above statement. The Pharisees were absolutely correct in saying only God can forgive sins. Jesus is God thus He could forgive the sins. That is why it was NOT blasphemy for Him to say that.


It is completely blasphemous to state that you, me or any man has the ability to forgive sins. In this statement Jesus is not giving you the authority of forgive sins, He is giving you the Holy Spirit to proclaim the forgiveness of sins by preaching the word of God with boldness.


In John 20:23 Jesus said “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” This was following Jesus’ statement of “Receive ye the Holy Ghost” in verse: 22.

What was the Holy Ghost given for?

John 16:8-11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

In Acts 4:31 when the believers were assembled together praying; “…and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the work of God with boldness.”

No where in scripture does it say that anyone but God can forgive sins. No where in scripture to you see any of the Apostles or followers of Christ forgiving sins.

They are filled with the Holy Spirit to proclaim the conditions of forgiveness in the preaching of the gospel of Christ with boldness.


Let’s look in the list of manifestation of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:7-11): wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, speaking in tongues, and interpretation of tongues.

Nope I don’t see “Forgiver of sins” listed there.

OK well let’s look at the list of the ministries the Holy Spirit gives (Eph. 4:11-12): And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Hummmm… I don’t see “Forgiver of sins” listed there either.


Without trying to isolate a scripture by itself and looking at the entirety of the Word of God we can clearly see that only God can forgive sins. That goes for us today, be filled with the Holy Spirit and preach the gospel with boldness.

 2010/7/11 17:15Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re: Theology Check

hi, this could mean that if a person sins against me by lying gossip and comes to me and asks for forgiveness from me and i forgive them MY path is made straight and i am free from guilt but they still need to confess their sins to the Lord for them to be free.jimp also in leading someone to Christ you can tell them that their sins are forgiven.

 2010/7/11 20:34Profile









 "Completely Blasphemous"

"It is completely blasphemous to state that you, me or any man has the ability to forgive sins. In this statement Jesus is not giving you the authority of forgive sins, He is giving you the Holy Spirit to proclaim the forgiveness of sins by preaching the word of God with boldness."
-- Iceman9 --

As you wish, Iceman.

The Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy as well, for the very same offense, using the same faulty logic, the same faulty presuppositions. (Or so it seems.)

"I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself." (I Corinthians 4:3)

"What is twisted cannot be straightened;
what is lacking cannot be counted." (Ecclesiastes 1:15)

Fortunately I am saved by grace, not by my faultlessly systematic theology nor by my omniscient interpretation of scripture.

"The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know." (I Corinthians 8:2)

 2010/7/11 21:00
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: our debts

"And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors." Matt 6:12 NKJV

"And forgive us our sins, For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one.”" Luke 11:4 NKJV

If you compare Matt and Luke here you will see how inadequate it is to narrow 'hamartia' to mean an arrow off target. Notice the balance of Luke 11, you will see that 'sins' (hamartia) are synonymous in this verse with 'being in debt' . In this verse we see that sin is indebtedness to God. You will also see whose debts 'you' can forgive. You can forgive 'debts' against yourself. You will see too, I trust, what nonsense it would be to think that I could release someone who was in debt to another. I can release debts against me, none other.

So God is willing to forgive debts against him but to pretend that we have the power to discharge debts against God is folly. The Popes of old claimed to have power over purgatory and to be able to release souls from purgatory. The obvious question is 'if they had this power why did they not exercise it to release all purgatory's captives?'

For anyone who claims to have power to forgive sins and to release debts, with no accompanying repentance or knowledge, the obvious question is 'why don't you forgive the sins of the whole world?'


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/12 14:28Profile





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